Dr. Vin Del Casino:
If I admitted a student to San Jose State, they’re ready. Now. It’s our job to help them succeed. And if they don’t succeed, that’s not on them. That’s on us. When you say a student is at risk, you put all the responsibility on them. Hmm. When you say the institution is not supporting that student, you’re not the student’s. Risk is not with them. It’s with the institution. And that’s the shift. It’s a shift away from that individual sensibility that that individual is at risk. That’s a deficit mindset. We wanna move away from that and create a community of connection and belonging that allows a student to thrive.
Joe Gottlieb:
That’s Vin Del Casino, Provost at San Jose State University, talking about the shift in mindset needed for an institution to own the risk of losing a student rather than the deficit mindset that tends to frame at risk students. We talked about this mindset shift in the context of San Jose State’s Student Ready Campus. Its partnership with high tech neighbor Adobe Software, the need to feed the workforce of Silicon Valley, and the dizzying acceleration driven by AI. I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Joe Gottlieb:
Welcome to TRANSFORMED, a Higher Digital podcast focused on the new why’s, the new what’s and the new how’s in higher ed. In each episode, you will experience hosts and guests pulling for the resurgence of higher ed, while identifying and discussing the best practices needed to accomplish that resurgence. Culture, strategy and tactics, planning and execution, people, process, and technology. It’s all on the menu because that’s what’s required to truly transform.
Joe Gottlieb:
Hello, welcome and thanks for joining us for another episode of TRANSFORMED. My name is Joe Gottlieb, President and CTO of Higher Digital. And today I am joined by Dr. Vincent Del Casino, Provost at San Jose State University. Vin, welcome to TRANSFORMED.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Joe. It’s really great to be here. I really appreciate it. What do you want to talk about today?
Joe Gottlieb:
Well, I’m glad you asked. I wanna talk about your thoughts on creating student success in a digital now, but first I’d love for you to share a little bit about your background and how you got connected into the work of higher ed.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Yeah, it’s a really great question. You know, and it, it goes back to literally being 19 years old and sitting in a classroom and going, that’s what I wanna do for the rest of my life. I wanna be a college professor. And over that period of time, I eventually did get my doctorate. I got my first job at Long Beach State, and I found myself in positions of leading chair. Eventually went to the University of Arizona, and I’ve been somebody who passionate about higher ed, what it can do to transform limes, to transform to mine. I’m the first in my family to get a bachelor’s degree. And so, you know, I’ve always been really excited to do the work. And so I’ve had opportunities to do things, expand access to education through online, through career education, those kind of things. And it’s led me to a provost job today at San Jose State where I’m working at one of the most interesting intersections of public higher ed and one of the most dynamic economies in the world,
Joe Gottlieb:
I should say. So. Well, and we’re gonna get right into that. So, great hearing your background. It, it sounds like it’s very well suited for what you’re doing. So before we dive in and set the context though, let’s pick apart this little episode title we have. It’s very provocative, you know, what do we mean by digital now?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
You know, what’s, we always talk about digital futures, but we’re in the middle of it at this point, and it’s coming at us so quickly. That really is now, this is the moment where the digital and the human are intersecting in such a way that it’s hard to parse them apart. So I think the now is what we’re doing and where it is in the future will continue to be in with us as opposed to in front of us.
Joe Gottlieb:
Well, it must be true because what’s going on can be very dizzying right now. So it’s it’s a factor to behold to be sure. So, all right. Now let’s paint a little bit of context. Earlier this month, San Jose State was included in the Department of Education’s inaugural Post-secondary Success Recognition program. And as I understand it, there were 200 institutions that were eligible, 120 applied and only six were accepted. And one of those was San Jose State. Why was San Jose State recognized and why is it particularly notable for you?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
You know, it, it’s really an incredible honor because the schools that were listed are some of the best in the country for helping students find and achieve their dreams. And that really is, at the end of the day what this is about. So really finding the place where all students from diverse backgrounds, first generation, those with federal financial aid, the kinds of students that we know are gonna drive the future of the economy and help them figure out where they’re gonna go is critical. So for us, meeting students where they are, building an institution that is about the student first and not the institution first has been critical. So I think there’s tremendous opportunity to really work at scale, really imagine where things are. And I think they recognize that in our application, that we’re really looking at breaking down administrative barriers, reorganizing ourselves so students can have success, and building alternative pathways like SJSU online so that students can figure out like, alright, I can’t make it to campus every day. How do I get an SJSU degree and move on board? So those are some of the ways in which, you know, they’ve really recognized us for building that student ready campus that looks at every individual process and says, does that serve a student or not?
Joe Gottlieb:
Student ready campus. You know, I’ve heard a lot of talk about focusing on the student experience and student first and all that. Can you tell me a bit more about what a student ready campus really looks like? Because that’s a, that’s a term that it feels like there’s something more specific going on there. Or do I have that right?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
You do have it right. There’s a literature out there. Tia McNair and others really put this forward that a student ready campus is one where every single process and practice looks at how the student experiences it. And it says at the very beginning, if I admitted a student to San Jose State, they’re ready. Now it’s our job to help them succeed. And if they don’t succeed, that’s not on them. That’s on us. Right. And it, we know that not every single student may make it through all the time. There are lots of things that happen, but there are many things that happen within the institution. And if there’s an administrative barrier, or even the ways in which we communicate with a student doesn’t show them that we’re ready to help them succeed, then we’ve got a challenge and we’ve gotta fix that. And we’re really doing that. It’s the only way to scale success. It’s the only way to scale success.
Joe Gottlieb:
Yeah. So really taking responsibility for success in a very proactive way, which is a bit of a shift. Right. And it’s even, it’s a shift beyond, as I hear you talk about it, just improving your ability to catch those that might have fallen. This is literally about trying to underwrite an experience that that you’re trying to drive a hundred percent success, right. With that kind of commitment.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Well, it comes down to the moment. It’s in the very language of historically, when you say a student is at risk, you put all the responsibility on them. Hmm. When you say the institution is not supporting that student, you’re not the student’s risk is not with them, it’s with the institution. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And that’s the shift. It’s a shift away from that individual sensibility that that individual is at risk. That’s a deficit mindset. We wanna move away from that and create a community of connection and belonging that allows the student to thrive. ’cause Again, it’s not easy to get into San Jose State. There’s a lot of things that if you get here as a freshman, you’ve, you’ve figured it out. You know what to do. Now. It’s like, it’s a big place. It’s complicated. You’re outta school with 37,000 students. How do you navigate that? And we’ve gotta do that work that you can’t expect 37,000 individuals and then say, when they don’t navigate your place, it’s, they’re at risk. No. The institutions where the risk lies.
Joe Gottlieb:
Well, I’m certainly feeling a bit educated here. And if I were to raise my hand in this class, I would say, well, does it mean that now the institution is at risk of losing a student if there’s a challenge? Right. So now turn it completely around. It’s the institution’s risk when we think of it in these terms. Right?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. We have to own the student’s success and do everything we can to plow the road so that they can be, enjoy themselves and thrive and, and find their path through this institution. And there’s a lot that goes on in the life of an 18 to 24-year-old or an adult returner. They got a lot of things going on. The last thing they need is the university getting in their way.
Joe Gottlieb:
Yeah. Well put. So why is it so important for San Jose State in particular to meet more students where they are rather than brag about being selective in admissions?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
You know, the core mission of public education, in my opinion, is to advance the public good by educating as many people as we can. And there’s too many times that we have said to our student population, our community, our young people like you don’t belong here. Hmm. And again, like to get in, there are certain requirements to get into San Jose State that are tied to all kinds of things, but when they get in, we have to own their experience with them. And so that’s what we want to do is, and I, I walk in and I do orientation. I’m like, look, you got in. That means you’re ready. And here’s the thing. People rely on us to educate those students at scale. ’cause We drive so much of the economic development of one of the most robust regions in the world, and we generate 8% of all the engineers in the state of California amongst all four year institutions. Right. That’s huge. Think about that for a minute. That’s a big number, right? Yeah. That’s a really big number
Joe Gottlieb:
Right here in the heart of Silicon Valley in case no one’s put, you know, two and two together. Right? So you call yourself the, the workforce engine for Silicon Valley or Silicon Valley’s Public University. Let’s just talk a little bit about that. ’cause I live here, I’m a neighbor, so I’m used to it and I I love it. I, I see it every day. But, you know, this is about feeding a massive global economy with enough talented graduates to help steward it forward. And yes, it’s not, you’re not doing all of it, but at 8% of California’s, you know, graduating engineers, that’s a huge chunk, huge role to be playing for this massive economic engine.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Well, and if you think about it, I mean, we have at any one given time, 6 to 7 thousand students that are working at the intersection of computing information science, library science, data science, data analytics, information systems. And, you know, they’re impacting all kinds of things. But we’re also delivering on the social work needs of the county of the educational needs. I mean, you can’t go into a school or an office in the county or city and not find a San Jose State employee. And so, you know, those numbers are really big. And they’re big at companies like Apple, where you’ll find 2000 alumni from San Jose State, and they’re big in the city of San Jose, where you’ll find almost a thousand alumni work in the city government. And so you think about that for a minute, and you think about what it means to be on 90 acres with 37,000 students graduating almost 10,000 a year, and driving forward the economy of this amazing region that’s very complicated with a lot of difference in it. You know, it’s not an easy place to live, right? Mm. Because of what it is. And so we have a really important role in the social mobility and social futures of this region and of these communities. And that’s what we’re, we’re trying to double down on.
Joe Gottlieb:
Really. Interesting. So I want to take this now into another layer of what’s going on there. ’cause I know you have a special partnership with Adobe, the longstanding market leader in digital media, creative design and communication software. How has your designation as an Adobe creative campus help you to accelerate student success in this context?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
You know, type in, in any job search engine type in an Adobe product or multimedia experience, you’re gonna find tens of thousands of jobs. Yeah. All across. And they’re not all marketing jobs, they’re all kinds of jobs, right? Where people are like, how do I interact in a very highly multimedia world? So our partnership as a creative campus in this robust network that Adobe’s put together is to really double down, not just on providing licenses to students. And we do that. We have over 20,000 licenses of Creative Cloud deployed on the campus. But more importantly, how do you integrate that into curriculum? How do you build co-curricular experiences for students? How do you create spaces where students can really adapt this creativity, learn different tools? How is AI interacting in a multimedia way? How am I building stories right, that can connect with people in a video forward world, whatever that is, we’re integrating that such that you can go to our career center now and learn how do I integrate creative literacy and creative practices into my future job thing or into our library where we have training programs and other things like that.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
And in our classes, and I’m not just talking our classes in the creative arts, we have a program that’s te teaching storytelling. And faculty in biology are teaching storytelling using Adobe Creative Cloud in their biology class to help students connect to the curriculum. One of the things that’s most important in all this work is how do I see myself navigating this? Hmm. And when students can find a connection to their learning, they’re going to do better. So there’s a lot of layers to why this, there’s a value add to this partnership, but, and what it means for our campus. But we’ve been able to double down on a lot of that and really infuse it in a way where students come here and see their creative capacities grow. And not just in the traditional fields where you might expect that.
Joe Gottlieb:
I, I makes me think about my days as an undergraduate. I was a, an engineering major myself. And I can remember taking at least one class where I was being pushed to sharpen my technical writing skills. And it was this notion that, well, guess what? Engineers, if they wanna have more impact, you know, they gotta be able to communicate with the rest of the world. Like, that’s one of the barriers for engineers where it was back in the day since I’m kind of old now, but gosh, it’s come so far, so fast in the, in the interim. And it’s, it is picking up speed, I think. Right?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Well, and it’s really exciting. We’ve integrated into our writing program so that students, to your point, are learning to write in communicative environments that they’re gonna have to write in. And, and even honestly, we have an AI writer’s toolbox. Now, how are you connecting to generative AI tools? What does that mean? But then how are you presenting and telling that story? So imagine you’re learning writing now, but you’re seeing a purpose to it that’s not just, oh, I have to get through a writing class, but rather, oh, I can build a magazine article, or now I have a portfolio that I could connect to my CV or my resume when I go out in the job market, it could show up in my LinkedIn profile. Right? You’re gonna be much more attractive to, to the market if you have those kind of skills. ’cause No matter what job you do, and you have an engineering degree, so you know this, the ability to put that thing succinctly on paper and tell a story to convince somebody that that project’s important, that’s a game changer in the workforce. Right?
Joe Gottlieb:
Right. And, and it’s reflecting this trend. Well, it, it feels like a trend that should have happened sooner, but it’s certainly picking up a lot of speed now. And that is applied learning. So how do I take theory and apply it to circumstance to produce an outcome? Right. And that’s just so different than re regurgitating theory from memory. And I can feel it happening there to be sure.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
So, well, we’re even working with faculty on that sort of thing. How do you take your ideas and translate them out into a community environment? So we have a big project that we did for four years called op-ed project, train faculty on how to take their really important ideas, but talk to people who might not know what you do in your field in a different way.
Joe Gottlieb:
Interesting. So you mentioned ai, so I can’t help myself, not as if I was gonna help myself <laugh> on this, but your approach to AI has been a little different than some of the others that I’ve observed. And, and so rather than sort of rushing out to standardize and control its use, you have really left it up to faculty to decide how they want their students to use it. So I’d love for you to, to share some of the benefits that you’ve unlocked with this approach, along with other things you’ve put in place to make it safe enough, controlled enough. So maybe you can hit both sides of that coin.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Yeah, it’s a really great question. And I, it goes back to a personal story. I, I think I like to share. And I remember sitting over a holiday and my son, who at the time was 17, said, have you seen chat GPT yet? And we sat around as a family and we talked like with chat pt. And the minute I got back that January in every faculty meeting, what are we gonna do about this? IE in the panic mode that there’s gonna be wholesale cheating, no one’s ever gonna write again. And what I said in that moment, very off the cuff, but with purpose, was, we’re gonna have to lean in. And what I mean by leaning in is we’re, we’re not gonna have a choice to, to say, no, rather, how are we going to use it? And then people said, well, but we need policy right away.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Like, what is the rules around its use? And what I said again, back to them is, I don’t think we can keep up with a rule set that’s easily gonna manage how. And so we have to let people, for lack of a better word, struggle with this. Hmm. This is a higher education institution. Learn with it and decide how you want to engage it and what that’s allowed to do. It has created tension. You know, in some cases faculty might have gone overboard and going, well, you use it, you’re out. You know, to other faculty going, all right, well, I’m gonna figure out how to interact in this world. Or to, Hey, you know what I’m telling you upfront, we’re not gonna use this, these tools, whatever that is. And it’s allowed people to come up with creative ways to engage it. At the same time, we’re definitely building a, we have a strategy, we have a lot of curriculum.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
We’re looking at ways to integrate it. We have a lot of tools that also help faculty. How can you use this? And we have tools for students. How can you use it? What’s the appropriate way to use it? So we’re definitely doing the education and the training, but we haven’t necessarily just wrapped it up, up in a neat little bow and said, here’s sjs u’s stance on generative ai, for example in the classroom. Rather, it’s part of our world. How are we interacting with it? And I think it allows for creativity in ways that you don’t always get if you quickly come down with this is gonna be the answer.
Joe Gottlieb:
I imagine you saw an an interesting range of responses to that, right? Maybe some felt a little bit naked without guidance, without rules, and maybe struggled a little bit. I’m sure you also probably saw how known leaders set courses for, you know for others that might follow and, and others might, you know, and, and, and did you see some of those different behaviors?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Absolutely. And I’ll tell you, coming out of the pandemic, people wanted from me, VIN, what’s the distribution of face-to-face, hybrid and online education? What should we be? I said, I’m not gonna answer that question for you. That’s a pedagogical question. Hmm. That should be locally answered. What do the students want? You know? Well, it turns out post pandemic, the students really want to face-to-face classes <laugh>. So, you know, they really came back and like, I’m exhausted sitting in these screens. I want something different, but I need flexibility now. Yeah. And what ended up happening is some colleges went more face-to-face, others didn’t. And we’ve kind of created an equilibrium where students can build a schedule that works for them. And I had moments where people were like, you gotta tell us, tell us what to do, because otherwise there’s gonna be difference on the campus. And people are not, are gonna say, it’s not fair.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
And I’m like, I’m not doing it. And I feel the same way here. Like, it’s moving too fast that we have to let some of the organic opportunity emerge and will be something on the other end. I can’t exactly say what it’ll be, but I think that’s really important. And many higher ed leaders, you know, people in our jobs will be quick to answer that question and go, all right, this is what it looks like, therefore do it this way. I don’t know, I I didn’t think that was healthy for the institution. I didn’t think it was healthy for faculty. They said, should we have online education? I said, I don’t know. Is it pedagogically effective? Can you teach that in a way that you feel like you’ve met the same learning outcomes? That’s a faculty question. That’s not a provost question.
Joe Gottlieb:
Well, it certainly gets back to your student first camp, you know, student ready, campus instinct and, and principles. And I actually love it, right? But it, but it, it, it, it, it does put the onus back on those responsible for creating that success. So if we get back to first principles in this case, you know, the, the faculty are really holding the keys. And it sounds like while there could have been a theoretical cost of students complaining about inconsistency, doesn’t sound like that was so big an implication that it backfired.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
No, I don’t, I don’t think it did. And again, in some cases, and I’ll say it in general, education, people like the flexibility of online. But in their skill-based class, they wanted to be back in the lab or they wanted to be in the seminar room, you know, debating that book project or whatever it is. They, they have wanted that and for faculty to learn, like, oh, I can teach in a multimodal way. Yeah. And I can get a long, I can get the same content and have the same outcomes. Then you are responding to the students. Now we’ve built SJSU online as well, fully online eight week classes, asynchronous degree completion. ’cause There are adult learners that need that. And so it’s not like we haven’t built with intention and purpose in particular ways, but in other ways, you’ve gotta kind of let this work itself out. So that, and it forces people to ask the question, how do I create an environment where students can be successful?
Joe Gottlieb:
Right.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
And if you don’t see that in an online class, then you probably need to do something different. And you don’t need me to tell you that
Joe Gottlieb:
<Laugh>. Right. So it, it reminds me about the, another major trend here, which is the need for connectedness. Right? I I, I, I hear a lot of talk about that, not just in higher ed. There’s a, we’re I think we’re experiencing a, a cultural evolution. I think social media and information and news flows have a lot to do with this. There’s a, everyone is so served by their personal streams of information and, and their digital experience that they’re actually feeling more lonely than ever before. And so I wonder if I, I, I know and that’s why I’m asking, but maybe you can share a little bit about how you’ve approached that both on campus and online with this forward sort of forward leaning in proactive posture on student success.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Yeah, that’s a really great question. And when you look at the data, let’s say why a student leaves sense of belonging is almost always at the top, not the top two or three grades 10th. Now there’s a correlation. If I don’t feel a sense of belonging, I don’t do well in my classes. Right. You know, so there’s a relationship there. But that sense of belonging connection is really challenging and it’s really challenging in an online environment. So you have to create intentional points of connectivity between students and between students and faculty. And you have to bake that in to the courses because really for almost the most part in online ed, it’s the classroom on the campus. It’s also about that co-curricular experience and about making connections. Now, the nice thing is the digital tools can be built to help you navigate that. Because with 37,000 students and 150 undergrad degree programs and 65 academic departments, there’s something going on everywhere every minute of the day.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
And so how do you see that, right? How do you connect to that and how do you help build that? Well, from that sense, like we’re getting to a place where we’re having a better understanding of that student experience so that we can take advantage of this moment, which is to personalize that learning in a more deep way. Take advantage of digital tools to help a personalize so that they can make the human to human connections and build that sense of belonging. We’re not there yet, but that ecosystem is being built so that advisors and student affairs professionals and others from around the campus can really help direct students and get them together at, at scale again, and do some really interesting things. I hope at some point that we’ve become like, almost like a smart city. And imagine you walk past the library and you’ve opted into a system and it’s like, oh, you’re in the writing classes. You know, they’re doing a writing workshop right now in that building, and you’re walking past it, <laugh>, you should go. Right? Like, I think we can do a lot of that thing. Or you walk past the event center, like women’s basketball’s playing in 15 minutes, it’s free.
Joe Gottlieb:
Yeah. Check it
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Out. Check it out. Right? Like, and they’re giving away pizza, you know, whatever it is, right. You’re
Joe Gottlieb:
Gonna eat
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
<Laugh>. Right. You know, like it’s, it’s, it’s those kind of things. And we definitely have to be more intentional and purposeful than ever before because we’re still feeling the pandemic. Yeah. I mean, these are students right now who are coming in who were freshmen in 2020. Well, they were home. They were home. Yeah. And my kids, my son was a freshman in 2020. It was a hard year and a hard transition back. And he didn’t do as well as he had hoped. Like, and he did fine. But, you know, at the end of the day, he definitely, that that it, that’s a big impact. And we have to acknowledge that that’s still goes on. And how do we build that community is really critical.
Joe Gottlieb:
So looking forward, what, what’s your, what do you see in the future? What does, what does San Jose state look like in five years when we’re deep into this era of what feels like now, like this paradigm shift, but by then we’ll be, wow, we will have experienced so much impact. What does that look like? Where do you wanna be?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Yeah, I think the first thing is a highly flexible institution because more and more people need to move in and out and of the, of higher education. And we’re really baked to start in the fall and finish four years later or finish six years later. And we still need to do that, but we also need to be more flexible. And we’re doing that now. We’re part of a program called Second Start, where students can who didn’t do well, can come back, raise their GPA and wipe that old GPA and start over. Like those kind of things need to happen. And we need to make the administrative barrier seamless. So if you need to take a semester off, no problem, just sign right back up. You’re good to go. Hmm. The other thing is we need to create these multiple pathways and on roads through online, hybrid, face-to-face, maybe some distributed education so students can also kind of manage their daily lives in relation to all these things.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
And so, if I thought about this campus in three to five years, we’re about 37,000, we could be 50,000, but working in these more flexible sorts of models of education. The second thing is we have deeply integrated where the human sits in this technologically advanced world, such that students are walking out with skills that they can put on resumes, but they also know what those implications are so they can be outstanding citizens of our technological future. ’cause I think it’s gonna be more important than ever the question of privacy and what it means in this world. Very different for an 18-year-old than someone of my generation. They’re living in a totally plugged in world, data everywhere moving around. They need to know how these systems work, even if it’s not part of their daily job, so that they can bring that ethical lens to whatever they do. Hmm. So I think a human-centered, but AI forward campus that’s technologically sophisticated will be critical. So those are two things I think about almost immediately. And that then we’re be able, we’re a campus of choice because we’ve built this. And everyone knows you come through San Jose State to answer these questions, find the best students, you know, work with the amazing faculty and, you know, help work on the, the real equity gaps that exist in San Jose by empowering people and providing social mobility to more folks.
Joe Gottlieb:
Sounds like a bright future. All right. Let’s bring this to a close. In summary. What three takeaways can we offer our listeners on this topic of creating student success in a digital now?
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Well, the first thing is you gotta build institutions so that students are at the center. Our processes have to be designed from the student out. I think the second thing is we’re experiencing unbelievably accelerated change and AI in whatever form is paradigmatic and is forcing higher education to change continuously. The last thing is, I think San Jose State has a, an opportunity to leverage its geography and its talents to be a university of choice for those who really want to build a digital future with humanity at the center of it.
Joe Gottlieb:
Love it. Great summary. Finn, thanks for joining me today.
Dr. Vin Del Casino:
Thanks for the invitation. It’s been a wonderful conversation.
Joe Gottlieb:
And thanks to our guests for joining us as well. I hope you have a great day and we’ll look forward to hosting you again on the next episode of TRANSFORMED.
Joe Gottlieb:
Yo, stop the music. Hey, listeners have transformed. I hope you enjoyed that episode and whether you did or not, I hope that it made you stop and think about the role that you are playing in your organization’s ability to change in the digital era. And if it made you stop and think, perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts, suggestions, alternative perspectives, or even criticisms related to this or any other episode, I would love to hear from you. So send me an email at Info@Higher.Digital or Joe@Higher.Digital. And if you have friends or colleagues that you think might enjoy it, please share our podcast with them as you, and they can easily find it on podcast platforms.