Joe Gottlieb:
Hello, welcome, and thanks for joining us for another episode of TRANSFORMED. My name is Joe Gottlieb, president and CTO of Higher Digital, and today I am joined by Dr. Monique Sendze, vice President for Information Technology and CIO at California State University Chico. Monique, welcome to TRANSFORMED.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Thanks, Joe. Happy to be here. What do you wanna talk about?
Joe Gottlieb:
Well, I’m really glad you asked. I want to talk about how you are working organizational change to drive organizational change management there at Cal State Chico. But first, please share with our listeners a little bit about your personal journey, how you got into this game, and how it shapes the passion for the work that you do.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Awesome. Happy to do that. So, my journey to IT leadership was not a straight line by any means, because when I immigrated to the United States 28 years ago, I came here with the intention of pursuing a doctorate in teacher education, having obtained a master’s in education from my home country, Cameroon. But instead, I took a little detour, um, because I had two other sisters here in the US with careers in it already. And so they encouraged me to explore a career in it. And so I obliged and I obtained a bunch of IT certifications and ended up pursuing a second master’s degree and earned a master’s of Science in Management information Technology. I ended up working my way up the chain in roles such as IT support analyst, systems administrator, exchange administrator, IT help desk manager, IT manager. At one point all the way to IT, director and I finally made it all the way up to becoming CIO for many organizations, including several other senior leadership roles, within organizations of all sizes.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Several years later, I decided that because of my passion in leadership and organizational development, I pursued and end my doctorate in organizational leadership and organizational development, which has really allowed me to immerse myself in this discipline and grow my knowledge as a practitioner. I have worked for organizations of all sizes and gone through all types of technological changes and transformation. And through this journey, I have learned a few lessons. So I’ll share a few. Uh, first, I learned that to be a successful IT leader, you need to listen and understand the needs of the business because that is the only way you will be able to bring and add value. I also learned that a leader is as good as the talent that they have on their team, and therefore, attracting and retaining great talent and surrounding myself with people that are even more smarter than me has been a hallmark of my leadership.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And something I learned very earlier on in my career, because failure or success depends on the people you work with. N next I learned that my technical skills are important, yes, very important to the job as a CIO, but I also learned that my technical prowess alone is not going to be enough if I want to be successful in driving innovation for my organization. So I realized that I needed one more tool in the toolbox, and that is building and nurturing relationships with my peers, colleagues and business leaders inside and outside of my organization, and looking for role models, mentors and sponsors to help me get to the finish line. I have also learned that to drive change communication, open communication and frequent communication up and down and across the organization to let people know where you are going, short term and long term, share your successes, share the speed bombs and some of the failures builds a lot of goodwill and buying from stakeholders to draw from when the going gets tough. And finally, last but not the least, I have learned that if I want a seat at the table, I have to earn it. And that comes with a lot of hard work, resilience and humility. I stand here today as a woman in technology leadership in higher education because someone believed in me, even when I try to let my fears stand in my way, and today I am now able to give back and not only push down doors for others, but hold those doors open for them to walk in and thrive.
Joe Gottlieb:
Love it. Love it. That’s a masterclass right there in, uh, leadership in tech for sure. And I can just feel that, uh, that platform that you embody, and I know we’re gonna talk a lot about how you’ve applied that. So super exciting and in fact, our, our little title here for this podcast, which is, um, you know, driving organizational changes. So, literally creating changes in an organization so that you can drive, you can open up an ability for your institution to harness the discipline of organizational change management. That is, um, a very interesting angle on this problem. I’ll just say like, so, and I want to get into that story of how you, how you made that happen. But first, how did you determine even the need? I mean, the fact is is that I’ve singled you out here because you literally created a change management office and not many organizations yet have a change management office. And, and we would know, because that’s our specialty. We are in the business of helping institutions adopt this discipline and operationalize it, and it’s still a new frontier for many. So how did you determine the need? What did you see that made it clear you needed this?
Dr. Monique Sendze:
That’s a great question. So when I joined Chico State in March of 2022, I was joining as the inaugural vice president for the IT department that previously reported to the provost, provost in academic affairs. And now I was joining as a direct report to the president and a cabinet member. And I had the fortune, that my boss, the then president, had some data for what the current strengths and opportunities for improvements were from a couple of assessments that had been done. But then I also took advantage as a new leader in a new organization. And as part of my 100 days listening tour, talked with a lot of stakeholders and I was able to confirm that organizational change management and project portfolio management, where on the top five areas with opportunities for improvement at Chico State, we had some project manager, uh, management practices within our organization, uh, within the IT organization already.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
But those resided in one team, which was our enterprise applications team. And we had two resources that were, uh, solely focused on that department’s projects, leaving other organizational IT projects to other people within the division who were not really dedicated project managers, nor had the requisite PM skills. And our project management practices focused more on the timely implementation of projects than on the achievement of the desired outcome thereafter, or even the people and cultural factors that inhibit change from taking hold in the long term in an organization. So I felt strongly that we needed to facilitate the organizational change change from projects, um, organizational change that result from the many projects that it really strong on our organizations, and that ensuring that the intended business outcomes are realized and that the organizational resistance to change were managed in a way that our organization could really adopt the changes, especially at a time where, post covid, we were all running very fast and change was a constant thing.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Not only were we moving systems to the cloud, with software as a service, but also we were re-engineering processes and, um, people were beginning to get into change fatigue. And so, uh, it had become so important for, uh, for higher ed to really consider the impact of change on the people. And so that to me was how I realized that this discipline was very important because from an IT perspective, the root of the problem was twofold. The first being that project planning just tended to focus on technology and oftentimes neglected the people and cultural factors, like I said before, of, of organizational change. And then secondly, accountability for managing change and ensuring that the benefit realization was there for, and that we were getting the intended outcomes were not properly defined, and there really wasn’t clear ownership. And so it became very clear to me that as that organization that drove a lot of projects and was seen as the place that was bringing a lot of change in organization, it was very important for me to do this. And so I started to work on setting up a formal project management office with the idea of making sure that the P M O also becomes the organizational change leader. And so instead of standing up a P M O, I decided to stand up a project and change management office with clear responsibilities for driving successful project outcomes.
Joe Gottlieb:
Makes a ton of sense. And I think it’s another example of where while organizational change management and change management are disciplines that an entire company, business institution in this case, right? But it is true of all businesses.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Yeah.
Joe Gottlieb:
It needs it across the board. But given the nature of the work done in it, you were a particular, you, you had a particularly vested interest in this discipline being available to the organization so that these projects, which are tricky, they do involve change, um, so they could be more successful. So that makes a ton of sense, but how did you go about building the case for this investment and the change needed to bring it about?
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Another great question. And if you know anything about higher education, we don’t go very fast,
Joe Gottlieb:
<laugh> <laugh>
Dr. Monique Sendze:
But this was one initiative that I think, um, took, took root within the organization, um, and, um, um, because the need was clearly there. And so I started off by evaluating our current capabilities for managing organizational change. I put together some industry benchmark data, um, again, you know, if you need to do anything, data is your friend. So I put together some industry benchmarks and data from both Gartner and Infotech, uh, and I set a clear vision for what I thought the project and change management office within Chico State should be like, and what the, the outcomes would be. And I articulated the reason for why I felt like this was a key discipline that would help our organization move forward and, um, and also set an understanding of the goals and, uh, what challenges we, we would actually address if we were able to do this. So then I started socializing this idea with various stakeholder groups, went to the president as my boss at the time, then took it to the president’s cabinet, talk with the rest of my colleagues. I spoke with my IT leadership team, um, and just doing all of this and checking for alignment and understand and making sure that people were feeling like this was the right thing for the organization.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
But the challenge I had was that there was no budget to stand up a new department with all of the necessary capabilities that I had identified. So I examined the current team, and at the time when I just started here, I had about 23 or 24 vacancies within the organization. So I felt like it was really time for me to then do an organizational redesign and realignment, um, to see what positions were really needed to move it to the next level, as was the mandate of the president, was that it was gonna be the place that drove change and innovation. And so I then decided that with this realignment, I was going to use some of this, uh, um, um, vacancies to create new positions, uh, to allow me stand up a true project and change management office. And so I identified some things that were unnecessary, um, and that we could stop doing and really try to, uh, use, um, my talent at a hundred percent, because some of them were really underutilized.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And so I did some consolidation of teams, realignment of teams, elimination of some teams, and moved them into other teams based on the skills. And then I was able to identify, about 10 or so FTEs, uh, to allow me to begin, um, setting up the building blocks for building a change management office. Um, of course, people were freaking out because they were not sure, um, what this would mean for their jobs. Um, but, um, nobody lost their job as a result of this. Um, and also, uh, our business and finance, um, division had a continuous improvement team that was only dedicated to just business and finance division. Um, through some conversations, we were able to realize that they could be better used if this team became part of this new project and change management and really focus on this whole, um, ano this vertical within the project and change management office that was really focused on business process re-engineering and continuous improvement.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
So with all of the moving pieces, it was like I was playing a jigsaw puzzle here. I had everything in place, and I went to the president’s cabinet and made the case. And when they saw that this was not really gonna be an additional cost in terms of people and budget, there was full alignment, uh, behind that, that, and it was really, um, it was really easy, uh, to, to make that case. And they saw the attractiveness of this even before the PCMO was, was operating. And, and there was some interest, uh, of talking about even how they could leverage this once it is fully in place to lead other organizational projects outside of it,
Joe Gottlieb:
Very resourceful. I think it bears a little bit of focus, and some follow-up discussion because I see two things here. I see you work making the effort required to understand what skills you had and how you could better utilize those skills around a reimagined organization that’s gonna tackle things in perhaps some different ways, right? And you did, it’s always hard to find things you can stop doing, but you found some things, at least in relation to those other things that through your surveys, you had identified as valuable to your organization and your stakeholders, so you could drop some things. So that’s one source of efficiency. The other one that I always find fascinating is that you partnered, you partnered with another part of the organization that had some skills that represented synergies with the mission. And so I’m curious to hear a little more about how perhaps between the president mandating that you would have change management, you had the opportunity to drive this as a discipline for the organization and the business and finance team having some resources that maybe they could throw in.
Joe Gottlieb:
Maybe that helped them give a little bit more of a connection to this, a little bit more of a, I don’t know, is there a little bit of credit, a little bit of representation? Talk a bit about that. ’cause I gotta believe some of this is very emotional. It can be very political, and it’s tricky.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
I’ll go back to the beginning when I talked about lessons that I have learned as an IT leader. And one of those lessons that I talked about was relationship building, right? How you work with your colleagues up and down and across the organization. I happened to have identified a colleague that was an ally and she was the vice president of business and finance, and we happened to share the same, uh, background. She also is an organizational development person. Ah, and so she understood how to deploy talent effectively within an organization. And she clearly realized that if I was doing this one thing over here as an, as a centralized organization, there really wasn’t any need for a part of it to be within her organization and just serving her organization. It made sense when I talked to her, we all agreed it made sense for us to build this synergy and really bring together our talent, especially at a time when we were also facing a, a hiring freeze, right?
Dr. Monique Sendze:
How can we deploy our talent to actually get the maximum use in, in, uh, to in, in service to the organization? And so she was a great partner. And, and so that’s really, I’ll say that that’s really how that happened. I I wouldn’t take the credit for it. I think that it was just by working, um, strategically with a partner who was also willing and who also saw the value and the need for that kind of shift to happen. I’ll say she also trusted in my leadership and knew that if there was someone that could deliver on that promise, it was me. And so we aligned and we made this happen for our organization.
Joe Gottlieb:
That’s a great, it’s a great story. And I I think it’s a play that others can and should consider running in their organizations because these relationships create atmospheres for collaboration. That, and a little bit of risk taking, right? Because if you don’t have that feeling of trust from that relationship, you’re very much afraid of taking risks, right? And you’re, you shrivel up into a, a little bit of a monolithic defensive, uh, you know, you’re in a silo. It’s a very natural human behavior. And I found in all my years of doing this kind of work that most people start from a very well intended frame. And it’s organizational complexity that puts them in situations that forces them to make hard choices. And before you know it, they’ve painted themselves in a little bit of a corner, both even behaviorally, right?
Joe Gottlieb:
And, and sometimes without us even knowing it. And, um, anyway, so sounds like you ran, ran that play very, very well. And I’m wondering if the, if the ally you found in business and finance, did she also, did she see maybe even greater potential to accomplish what she might have been wrestling with driving from a planning standpoint, we all know, you know, finance, doing, planning it, it’s hard, it’s intrusive. It’s, it’s a foreign, it’s an alien thing to what we do all day. And it’s probably like pulling teeth in most organizations, right? At least that’s what I’ve seen. Does that that, did that happen? Totally,
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Absolutely. Again, I, there is this thing where there is synergy, right? She, she believed that if this function, this discipline resided in a central organization with more resources, she was gonna stand to benefit. Because HR is one of our biggest customers. Um, they are the ones with the most large complex projects that the organization has. And she, she does not have the skill of the project managers that I would have in the central organization. And so she saw that as an opportunity to also really help her scale up and really, um, move forward some of the projects within her organization, if there was this more robust, centralized team that was then working on all organizational projects. And, and I, and I think that that, that was very critical. Again, like I said, um, um, there was the relationship, but there was also some high strategic strategic thinking there between the two of us as to what this would mean for the organization, how well we would deliver projects, how quickly we would deliver projects, and how we could get to the organizational outcomes that we need faster, better, and with, uh, uh, and, and try to lower the barrier that might exist with some of the complexity.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And maybe trying to find people with skills that are not really there. Because at the time, the, the director of continuous improvement in her shop was also overseeing audit. So this person was really not focused on continuous improvement because they also had the responsibility of managing auditing. And so trying to bring a little bit more focus, um, attention to that work that needed to be done was a way to also allow her to get her job, her work within her area done.
Joe Gottlieb:
Interesting. It’s not, and it’s not the first time that I’ve seen the financial discipline appear as a somewhat technical discipline, like it that is generally less understood by folks that are in different departments and different disciplines, right? And so in this case, you took two things that are each technical and a little bit foreign to most people, and found a way to advance a synergistic agenda, but notably with people that are skilled at change management, that are skilled at handling these cultural factors that know that the nature of what they do is to help people move past the very, very human, uh, and emotional factors that get in the way of change. So I wanna sh I wanna shift gears a little bit now to the, um, the resistance you might’ve encountered. Uh, there’s always resistance, and I know you’ve got a couple of perspectives to share there. So tell me a little bit about how you approached buy-in and but then dealt with some of the resistance pockets.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
So the buying part was also very methodical, um, because, um, it, it, it was really important for people to really understand what, what, what was in need for them. Um, and, and, and so I did some presentations and, um, really, um, identified the key stakeholders throughout the organization who will be impacted by what I was trying to do, uh, and whose roles will be changing significantly, right? And then, um, look at those whose, uh, day-to-day activities will also be changed as a result of this, this reorg and realignment that I was trying to do in order to set up a, a change management discipline. And also I looked at, um, those different reporting relationships, what that would look like. And this was a very important one because the person that was in the business and finance, um, was sitting in that position as a director.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And moving into my organization where I already had a director of project and change management, it was very important for me to, to thread that needle very well, to get her to feel like there was something in it for her if she was gonna come in here and not have that authority of her own area like she used to have, but then having to report to another director. And so working with her, particularly to get that buy-in was very important. But also with those that I was bringing from the enterprise applications team to now come and be part of the project and change management team, uh, people work with teams and they have attachments. And coming in into a brand new team and a brand new leader, um, was kind of, um, um, created some anxiety for some of those people. And I just had to walk, walk in their shoes and show them that I truly understand how change is impacting them.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And sat them with them over and over, had one-on-one meetings, had group meetings, shared the vision, uh, got them in alignment, got them excited, had them go back, think about what they heard that I had just shared and why we were doing this. Invited them to come back. We sat in the meeting room for hours, talked through this, went through it, did, um, um, um, some whiteboarding and just went through all of that process to really, um, remove any resistance and fear of the unknown. But then something else happened, a perfect opportunity came by. We were about to start a huge system-wide human resource information system overhaul. And in that project, the chancellor’s office called out specific resources that will be needed for my campus to run this project effectively. And one of those was organizational change management. So talk about the perfect storm. And so it was clear that I just had the opportunity at this point in time to really just come in and say, with this new office, we will have a, we’ll have change leaders, we’ll have change managers, we’ll have people who will be able to step into this role that is required by the Chancellor’s office for us to run this project.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And it’s an 18 month project. That was the perfect opportunity, and I think it sold and, got people bought into it and really saw how important this was. But in terms of resistance, I wouldn’t say that I really faced any resistance. Uh, there was more curiosity than resistance, of course, when there is something new coming, uh, I think I would say that I had done a good job of actually selling the value that, um, resistance was really not what I experienced. I experienced more curiosity of people trying to understand how this was all gonna shake out. Um, and, but there was also a lot of excitement, uh, especially from my biggest, uh, stakeholder HR who felt like, oh, man, now they will have the resources to help them run this project where they would’ve otherwise been trying to run it with all internal i HR resources that they really didn’t have enough of.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And so, this was really, something that came in at the right time. Um, there was also a big question again, uh, like I was saying around the cost to stand up this surface. And again, I addressed those really well by letting, um, the, the administration understand that there was not gonna be any, um, cost in, in, in additional cost because we were gonna be repurposing and, and up-skilling and re-skilling people, uh, to be able to shift into some of these roles that we already have in place. Um, long term, uh, it would be my goal to have this, uh, unit transformed into a, a center of excellence, uh, for our organization because, um, again, um, higher ed, uh, we are not known to be great organizations for managing change. And I think that, um, any organization that has, uh, a team and a discipline that can really help the organization go through change is a plus. It’s a win. Um, and, um, that’s, that’s my hope for my organization.
Joe Gottlieb:
Well, and it’s nice to hear that the, the chancellor’s office really identified, uh, through some knowledge, perhaps through experience <laugh>, um, that change management would be an essential success factor in driving the new hr, uh, is, um, system overhaul. And that probably helped quite a bit. And so now that kind of is a good lead into how do you know, how would you describe the relationship between your change management office and the rest of the institution? Are you getting into a rhythm now that you’re established? And what does that look like? And maybe a little bit about the timeline for, for how you, how you want to continue evolving.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
So, um, so it wasn’t the timeline to getting us to where we we are today, uh, wasn’t exactly the timeline that I had originally, um, sought out to, to, to put in place. But, um, I, I, I, I worked with the timeline that I had because we had a hiring freeze, um, on the way. And so I needed to hire some new people to join the team. Uh, we did have a hiring freeze, but I was fortunate because I was able to write exceptions, um, for hiring, um, these positions. And my president at the time granted me those exceptions. Um, but again, the time to hire people and get them sitting in the seats and being productive is usually a six month, uh, timeframe. So, um, I got approval in October of 2022, uh, to move forward, um, with, with standing up the project and change management office. And, um, we, we, we were done and, and, and, and ready to go with a fully staffed office, uh, ready to engage and start working on change management initiatives right off the bat, uh, in May.
Joe Gottlieb:
Awesome.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
I do have now in that office, a director, two directors actually, one over the overall project and change management office, and then one director that’s over continuous improvement. I have three project managers, a business analyst, two change managers, and three continuous improvement analyst, and also an enterprise service management analyst who is really focused on the service management and portfolio manage project portfolio management tool. And making sure that that tool is properly designed to work in the way that it is supposed to, to work, to do all of our project intakes, ma manage the projects, do all the PO post project work, and all of the reporting. So that is that person’s work job within that office. Now, uh, talking about relationship between our change management office and the rest of the organization, um, we did a survey, um, which was, I called it a stakeholder expectation survey.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And, with that survey, we found out that some stakeholders were curious to know whether the change management office was going to be only an IT thing, or if it was, was gonna be an institutional wide thing, um, that was going to force a decision to start with it. People don’t like that. So, uh, we had to make it very clear to them that we are a service organization and our role is to provide that service to you. We are not here as decision makers for your organizational change or your, or whatever you need. We are here as a service organization to provide you with this service so that you can, um, get to that benefit realization for your projects. And it was interesting because, uh, that survey was trying to determine where you have high interest and high influence stakeholders, and where those people really resided, and the people that really felt like they needed this organizational change management discipline.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And we found out across all divisions that there was, there were really people there that really identified change management as something that they would really love it help with. And we, we jumped in and we have helped our student affairs folks with a project that had nothing to do with it. We, people have reached out to us to say, Hey, we’re trying to launch this program, and, uh, we’re trying, we would need your help to help us with a change impact assessment. Um, and so, um, the word went around that there is this capability in it. And, uh, because I launched it and I put out a blasted new newsletter blast out to the organization to let them know that these are the capabilities that we have. And so people saw it and, um, they, they came to us, which was good. Um, and so our job now is to build trust with them and to continue to demonstrate that value that we can bring to them, and that we are not only here to help you with IT projects, but we can help you with pro, uh, um, um, if you’re trying to launch a new program.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Now we have folks coming to us and asking us even, for assistance with training on a program, on something that they, they are launching that they feel like the change management didn’t go well. And it is because there was the lack of the training component and we’re doing all kinds of things for people across the organization. And, um, my folks couldn’t be happier. So, um, I would say that I think, um, you, with things like this, you just have to find champions, which is what I think we did find people who are willing to use your services and then they can talk it up to others. And I think that’s what happened here.
Joe Gottlieb:
Well, it’s a great story and, we’ll be watching you and rooting for you on the sidelines while pointing out that it’s a great example of how to tackle this pretty tricky area of organizational change management. So, to close, can you give our listeners three quick takeaways, uh, for this, this thing we’ve been talking about, which is how to, how to make adjustments in organization to open up that discipline of organizational change management.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
So three things I’ll say to my listeners. The first one is that don’t shy away from or neglect this role in your organization, um, because it is not just the business outcomes of the organization’s projects that will benefit, but the long-term sustainability of this kind of an organization itself will significantly be strengthened by making organizational change management a core competency. So take advantage of the fact that even though it may not seem like it might be the place for, uh, uh, leading organizational change, it is the best place for leading organizational change because a lot of projects start with it. And, um, I think that, um, we need to stop thinking only about the, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the suc the time, scope and budget aspects of projects, but really making sure that as an IT organization we are driving the overall success of the project efforts by leading and helping with change adoption.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
So that’s number one. The number two thing I’ll talk about is that we need to be mindful of the human factor of change and project success, because to ensure project success and maximize benefits, we need to be able to plan and facilitate the non-technical aspects of organizational change by addressing the emotional, the behavioral and cultural factors that foster a stakeholder resistance and normally would inhibit user adoption. So try to take more time and focus on that human part of change and leading projects. And then the third thing I will say is to make change management as ubiquitous, as change itself. So foster a project culture that is proactive about organizational change management and create a process where organizational change management considerations are factored in as early as the project ideation and where change is actively managed throughout the project life cycle, including after the project has closed.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
I was just going through my project intake process, my project lifecycle project process yesterday with my director of the project and change management office, and I was very focused on that post project phase because that is the phase where most organizations forget to nurture. You do the project, you take it all the way to the end and you say project closed, it’s done. But then you really need to continue to nurture it to make sure that there is that adoption, there is that benefit realization. And that is the part where my change managers are really focused in is, is while they’re engaged throughout the project from the beginning, we cannot afford to forget the after project that after the project has closed. Because you wanna touch in and make sure that you wanna have those touch points to make sure that, um, the adoption is still there and that people are continuing to realize the value.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
And that’s where my continuous improvement team then comes in to make sure that there is, that, that we are continuing to improving the process because it is not a now project, A project is defined as it has the beginning and an end, but that is just a project, uh, for you to lead organizational change. It has to be continuous, um, and you need to make sure you continue to get people engaged and that they’re really, um, excited and continue to realize that benefit of, of this thing that you just gave to them as either a tool, a process, or whatever that might be
Joe Gottlieb:
Great points of emphasis. Monique, thank you so much for joining me today.
Dr. Monique Sendze:
Thank you, Joe. It was such a pleasure. And I love talking about this subject because it is so near and dear to me.
Joe Gottlieb:
It is, and it’s a good one. So, and thanks to all of our guests for joining us as well. I hope you have a great day and we’ll look forward to hosting you again on the next episode of TRANSFORMED.
