Transcript

Dr. Tamara Brown:

I called a big group of people together, those who are responsible for advising. That’s one of the pain points I identified. So I’ll pick on that one. But it’s of a kind our IT professionals, just a, a big group of, of people including perspectives from students. And I said, I want us to have an app where a student can do everything they need to do without coming to campus, visiting an office, talking to anyone, transact all of their business, so that if we pick on advising, students can get advising 24 7. If they have an advising question on the weekend when we’re closed, they still are able to get some help because that’s when they have their question. And they shouldn’t have to save it for Monday morning when our office is open again. How can we have an app like that?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And there was initial silence and they’re like, Hmm, okay, that we need a bigger group of people in this room. I thought <laugh>, <laugh>, there was already a big group <laugh>. So one of the things that I’ve learned is it takes a lot more pieces than what I was originally thinking to do this thing. And so as we began to have a conversation I realized, and I already knew this, but the implications of it for an app is that we have a lot of technology that doesn’t talk to one another. Right? You got this tool over here and it does one thing, but if you need to do something else, you gotta get out of that and go into this other tool, and then the person has to integrate because the systems don’t cross pollinate. Well, that’s an inefficient, it’s common. This is not just my university, it’s common, but that’s not gonna work for the kind of app I’m talking about.

Joe Gottlieb:

That’s Tamara Brown, Provost and SVP of Academic Affairs at the University of Texas Arlington. Dr. Brown leads the 10 colleges and schools at UTA as well as a number of other units, including the division of Student Success, student Affairs, enrollment management, global educational outreach, libraries and others. We talked about how so much is possible when the provost owns transformation, has a vision for the future, seeks to leverage technology in the digital age, and is ready to collaborate across the entire institution to make things happen. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Welcome to TRANSFORMED, a Higher Digital podcast focused on the new why’s, the new what’s and the new how’s in higher ed. In each episode, you’ll experience hosts and guests pulling for the resurgence of higher ed, while identifying and discussing the best practices needed to accomplish that resurgence. Culture, strategy and tactics, planning and execution, people, process and technology. It’s all on the menu because that’s what’s required to truly transform. Hello, welcome and thanks for joining us for another episode of TRANSFORMED. My name is Joe Gottlieb, President and CTO of Higher Digital. And today I am joined by Dr. Tamara Brown, Provost and SVP of Academic Affairs at the University of Texas, Arlington. Tamara, welcome to TRANSFORMED.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Thanks, Joe. Really happy to be here. What do you wanna talk about?

Joe Gottlieb:

I’m really glad you asked. I want to talk about what’s possible when the provost owns transformation, but first, tell me a bit about your personal journey and how it has shaped your perspective and passion for the work that you do in higher ed.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Happy to do that and excited about that topic. You know, I am a first generation college student, and so that has set a context for my involvement in higher education as a learner as a teacher, now as a leader as a first generation college student, it meant that I didn’t have those folks in my network who could tell me what to expect or help me chart the path. And so I’ve really relied on a lot of guidance from others, faculty, advisors and so forth. And at some point during my college career when I changed my major from English, ’cause I wanted to be in journalism to, to psychology, my professors said, you know, have you thought about graduate school? And my question was, what is that? Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> <laugh>, right? Because I only knew about college.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

So just as an example of people sort of saying things guiding me, opening up my view beyond what I knew. And that’s been a consistent theme throughout higher education as a learner. As faculty, what I encountered in the classroom were a lot of students that were like me, not all of them. There were certainly a number of them who had family members who’d gone to college or who were professors or other kinds of leaders. But there were significant number that I could see resembled the kind of student I was. And it fueled a passion for me to be engaged in higher education in a way to help demystify open up possibilities for other students, like was open to, for me and help smooth the pathway for them to pursue those goals. And that’s what I see myself doing and the various twists and turns in my career in higher education if I look back on it and try to draw a theme or a thread that you often can’t see going forward.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

But when I look back, man, everything that I’ve done there has been this theme of supporting students to be successful. All students, certainly those like me, who are first generation and therefore need people in their educational spaces to step forward even when they haven’t asked and open windows of possibility that they can’t see for themselves and say, here’s how you do it. You are having that problem. Let me help you solve it. Here’s the way to think about it. That that’s sort of the theme that has cut through. And it is still what I see my role is as provost today. It’s about students supporting our faculty to serve our students, but really opening possibilities for, for both of those groups that they may not have seen, removing barriers and smoothing their pathway to get where they’re trying to go.

Joe Gottlieb:

Thanks for sharing that. So let’s take it from the top. You know, what is possible when the provost owns transformation? Provost is in charge of the value proposition of, of any higher education institution. That’s the product. Yes. And when you own the product and you can really have an aperture for potential innovation, a lot of things are possible. Let’s, let’s talk about that.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

A lot of things are possible, you know, as the, as the provost, it’s my responsibility to take hold of the vision that the president captures and guide the rest of the university in living into that vision, moving in that direction. And so Provost is a, a pivotal role in having responsibility for the academic mission of the university. And seeing that it is robust in the way that, and what it offers and the way that it prepares learners. That faculty are excellent in the classroom, but also excellent researchers, right? Knowledge producers that shape higher education in the future. And that we’re involving our students in that knowledge production. But also being concerned about the, the whole development of students. So it’s not just about what happens inside the lecture hall because our students spend a lot more of their time outside of class than they do inside of class.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And we know that there need to be opportunities to, for students to practice what they’re learning, develop more fully so their productive citizens contributing in their communities. And answering the big questions in a nutshell, <laugh> the role of the provost to kind of shepherd all of that. And so it’s critical in terms of the provost’s messaging, continually saying over and over where we’re going, why it’s important, why it’s valuable messaging externally as well to an increasingly skeptical public that wonders about that value proposition. Is it really worth it? So that messaging as well, we know that it is. So a significant part is messaging. It’s prioritizing, you know, we are called upon as higher education institutions to do a lot of things. We can’t do ’em all at the same time. And so how do we prioritize where we’re, which ones we’re gonna front load and which ones we’re going to pause a little bit before we scale it up so that we are accomplishing things without burning people out.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

We, we don’t wanna be sort of the jack of all trades and master of none, right? We’re doing a lot of stuff, but none of it really good because we’re, we’re stretching. So prioritizing, I think another role is creating the structures that are needed to support the direction that we’re going in. And certainly stewarding our progress toward goals. So clearly a leader and needing to lean into all those spaces so the rest of the organization can accomplish what we need for them to accomplish. And, and people can do what they’re great at doing. It’s sort of just harnessing and making sure we are all moving in the same direction. And so I see that as a, as a, as a support for my statement of saying anything is possible when a provost owns the transformation.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, that that gives us a lot to play with today, <laugh>.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

It does.

Joe Gottlieb:

It does. And and, and we will. So you also happen to own technology there at UT Arlington. And and so I wanna start with a question about how did you get comfortable enough with technology to incorporate it into your vision and innovative leadership process?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

I have always been interested in technology, actually. And the creativity that it, it breeds and that it inspires. One of my earliest memories of connecting technology with education is actually when I was in high school, I took this class and as a part of the class, we were learning how to write simple program on a Mac. So think really dos based, you know, I, it was the first time I’d ever seen a Mac before mostly PCs or type writers. And then there are these MAC computers, and we were learning how to write a program to do a simple exercise a little game. I got so intrigued Mm-Hmm. That I started reading the manuals to, to really do even more things than what we were learning in the class. That evolved into me tutoring other students. ’cause You have the computer set up side by side, right?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And students sitting there, and I would lean over because a student’s struggling. And I said, oh, no, no, no, no, you need to semicolon right there, or Nope, you gotta connect, you know this, whatever. And the teacher noticed that I, you know, I’m now like tutoring. And then she invited me up to co-teach. Wow. Right? Even as a, a student, because I was reading the manuals and learning so much more. So for me, it’s that connection of technology and higher education started really early. And it’s just continued, you know, technology infuses so much of our lives. If we think about commercial sort of business arrangements, you know, the, the chat bots that are on every website, when you skim over something, Hey, how can I help you? Is there a question I can answer? You know? And I started thinking about how can we have that type of technology integration in higher education so that we’re more proactive rather than reactive?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Are we not waiting for students to experience a challenge and then figure out where to go to get that challenge addressed before we do something? How can we identify in advance and like on those commercial websites, bus businesses pop up and say, Hey, I bet you wanna know about this. Click here and let me tell you right before they’ve even searched for it. So those become the ideas. I also remember hearing this story years ago about, I think this was Target. What about this father who went on target and was doing some shopping? And what popped up was you probably also wanna make sure you put some Pampers in your cart, right? And the father wa wasn’t shopping about anything related to that and became upset. So upset. He called Target, how could you recommend this? ’cause His daughter also used that account, where is this coming from?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And the answer was based on the shopping pattern, we thought we made the suggestion he was outraged. Then he goes and talks to his daughter, turns out she actually was pregnant. Mm-Hmm. <Laugh>. And so it was an appropriate suggestion. I start thinking, oh my gosh, are there ways of combining information and algorithms that we could anticipate and make suggestions about classes, majors, internships, you know, so really my context of higher education, looking at how the technology has penetrated other industries and how we could harness it here. So in higher education for me integration of technology really is about helping us solve problems that are actually solvable. It’s also about our context, which is often one of limited resources. We can’t hire enough people to do all of the things. So how can we use technology to help us with some of the things and then use our person resources for other things that are higher order, right? And where we want more of a high touch experience. And then lastly, I’ll say, for me, the integration of technology is so essential because it’s a way of making sure we keep our promises to students about what we’re gonna provide and the way we’re gonna support them to be successful.

Joe Gottlieb:

Nice. So to pick up on a specific here, I know you are driving a mobile app project. Yes. Very intent on improving the student experience. So channeling that impulse you felt to try to become more proactive serving students with technology versus reactive. I love the way you phrased that. So what was the initial driver for this project and how did you se secure support for it?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Well, you’re right. So I, I’ve been at my university for a year and a half. And so for me, my first year is one of discovery. Right. I what are those pain points? What are the pinch points? And how can I help us eliminate or at least lessen so that people are able to accomplish what they wanna accomplish? So it starts with leaning into what, what are the challenges that we’re experiencing or the places we wanna go that we feel hampered? And, and getting there, as I began to survey that, that list of, of items, again, my mind goes to, you know, how can we deploy technology to help us do that? So that’s the first piece. Second frame or second piece I thought, I wonder what we could iterate, integrate into our app. Surely we have an app, right? And someone says, oh yes, here’s, here’s, you can download it.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

So I download the app and I click on it. ’cause For me, this, my initial thought, we’ll just tweak that a little bit and and we can do that. And so I get to the app and so disappointed. Oh wow. I, I mean, to call it an app is being generous, right? It really was a mirroring of a website. So you would go to it, there would be something there, and when you click it, just pulled up a website page, no interaction. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, right? No transaction. It, it’s the same as if you’re sitting in front of your computer and just reading webpage after webpage after webpage. And I thought, oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is not how this, this, we have to make this a little more interactive where students can get their questions answered and their problem solved in the palm of their hand, just like they do on any other app that they have.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

So identifying and seeing pain points and pinch points, and then realizing everybody carries around an app, we’re not lugging around computers. How can we enhance that? And it required a total overhaul. So I called and my approach to leadership is, is real collaborative. I called a big group of people together, those who are responsible for advising. That’s one of the pain points I identified. So I’ll pick on that one. But it’s of a kind mm-Hmm. Our IT professionals just a, a big group of, of people including perspectives from students. And I said, I want us to have an app where a student can do everything they need to do without coming to campus, visiting an office, talking to anyone, transact all of their business. So that if we pick on advising, students can get advising 24 7. If they have an advising question on the weekend when we’re closed, they still are able to get some help because that’s when they have their question.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And they shouldn’t have to save it for Monday morning when our office is open again, how can we have an app like that? And there was initial silence and they were like, Hmm, okay, that we need a bigger group of people in this room. I thought <laugh>, <laugh>, there was already a big group <laugh>. So one of the things that I’ve learned is it takes a lot more pieces than what I was originally thinking to do this thing. And so as we began to have a conversation I realized, and I already knew this, but the implications of it for an app is that we have a lot of technology that doesn’t talk to one another. Right? You got this tool over here and it does one thing, but if you need to do something else, you gotta get out of that and go into this other tool.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And then the person has to integrate because the systems don’t cross pollinate. Well, that’s an inefficient, it’s common. This is not just my university, it’s common, but that’s not gonna work for the kind of app I’m talking about. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So then we need people who are gonna write the APIs that knit together all of our various systems. And I thought, great, let’s get those folks in here. Then it was, well, we pull our information from here and somebody else. Yeah, well we pull ours from over there. And I thought, okay, so now we gotta decide on a, the one source of, of truth, if you will, the one source of the information about our students that everybody will draw from, as opposed to everybody having their own little database or place of drawing. And we have different policies and rules. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> that now have to align.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

You see how the group just kept getting bigger and bigger? And I thought, okay. And they said, if you want students to do everything like parking too, and the police as well. ’cause Those are very different systems. And I thought, okay, now my head is hurting <laugh>. The answer is yes. But my mind just kept getting expanded about, oh, dear God, this this is like a whole big institutional thing. The answer is still, yes, I’m not easily dissuaded from the path. Yeah. But I began to see the complexity of what it will take. And so I took a deep breath and then I realized this is gonna pay dividends if we can figure this out beyond what we were originally thinking or beyond what I was originally thinking. Mm-Hmm. I mean, imagine how more student facing and proactive we can be if all of our systems are somehow integrated and we’re communicating across platforms and able to access data for real time interaction.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Like with that advising, it’s not you’re clicking on an app and going to a place to make an appointment for Monday. It’s no, you’re getting help right now. Yeah. And, and we build AI into this. So I mean, we have answers to questions that students commonly have. Why can’t we have an amazingly user-friendly interface that pops those things up and answers those common questions? And if a student says, this is still not answering my questions, then you’re dialing in and immediately there’s a person there on the phone or in a chat to say, how can I help you? Let’s talk a little bit deeper because all of our students don’t need the same level of advising. <Laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. We have a one size in how we do it, and everybody’s gotta funnel through this pinch point so you can get your classes. Many of our how, first of all, we wanna foster independence in our students, not dependence.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Right? That’s our goal in education. And second of all, can we imagine students that we can just trust and know how to do it? And those that really need a lot more guidance. Maybe somebody like me who’s first generation and it’s all brand new, we are freed up to invest there. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So it also began to make me realize, again, a whole institution transformation. We now will use our people differently and our people will be less frustrated by the number of systems they have to touch to do a single action. So I’m pretty excited, as you can tell, <laugh>,

Joe Gottlieb:

I feel it. And actually that last point you make jars another question loose, which is how are you leveraging this mobile app project to orchestrate collaboration across your departments? Across departments in general? Right.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

We’re, and well, we’re picking on advising because that is so student facing right now. But again, we are thinking about all of our, our systems and, and how we move forward. And, and it’s gonna take a lot of people innovating what they do and how they do it. We have advising centrally predominantly for first year students. And as students progress, that transitions to the colleges because you’re needing more career guidance and pathways for the particular major that you’ve chosen. And so if some of what we are doing, we agree to provide in the app in this interactive and transactional kind of, of way, then it frees up our folks centrally and across the colleges to collaborate differently and on other naughty problems that, that we have. So that, that’s, that’s one answer. And then the other thing, like I said, because there are different pieces of this pie that people own, I’m a convener of bringing those different entities together to say, okay, let’s level set on the challenge we’re having here and let’s think together about how we can do this differently.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Another thing I’ve found is that because we can often be so siloed in higher education, we’re not realizing synergies that exist where we can all be more efficient. But we’re also not realizing how when you pull a thread over here, you’ve unraveled something over there, <laugh> Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> that that’s also important, right? But you can’t see that. All you can see is, oh, this thread is here. Let me just pull that. And if we’re around the table together, level setting about all of the work that we’re doing, you’re sharing about what you’re doing, somebody else sharing, then we get to make sure that whatever we come up with is gonna make sure, yes, we’ve addressed this thread, but we haven’t inadvertently caused some of the problem in another area. ’cause We are paying attention to the whole. So I think, you know, my approach of sort of, you know, leveraging greater collaboration is as a convener of bringing folks together.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And then the last thing I would say is creating structures, sort of sandbox structures for people to experiment together as the, as the other way and feel supported in that experimentation. And like, they’re not gonna be punished if it, if it doesn’t work out. Right. So giving permission to play and experiment together without worry that, oh my God, you know, the provost has invested this money, we did this thing, we told her this was gonna be the solution, and it’s not working. Oof. And you’re, that, that fear that shuts down creativity. Hmm. And that shuts down innovation because Right. And so I, I give a lot of permission to fail. <Laugh> is my, is the other strategy to orchestrate collaboration. I’m fine if it doesn’t work, let’s learn. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we make a different mistake next time, but don’t worry about that. Let’s experiment. We, we don’t know. And that is the point. And we have to have the freedom to try. So I think convening, giving permission to play together, and as best I can re removing fears about being wrong in what you thought would be good, a good idea to implement,

Joe Gottlieb:

I can feel that leadership skill. It’s, it’s palpable. I, I, and it’s, it’s special because what we often are dealing with in higher ed are people that are very good at their respective fields and they’re very committed to doing things well. And the, there’s a lot of intent and intentionality there. And without the construct, without the, the, the permissions that you just talked about, the default is to feel uncomfortable with change. Because wait, you pull that thread, I’m over here and now we’re unraveling I need to, that’s my, that’s my reason to be, to forewarn about unraveling. But when you shift the game, I’ll bet you create atmospheres where people are very excited about this possibility. They must get a little infected by, by your comfort with not only the, the possibility of failing along the way and the journey that can represent, but therefore what that unlocks in terms of this shining possibility.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

It it is true. And I’m als I also try to lead by example. Right. This is not something you can just say in words. Hmm. And so I try as well to be really transparent about my own ideas and when I failed. So I’ve, I’ve said, Hey, this is a problem here. Let’s think together about solutions. Put your ideas on the table. Don’t just point out the problem, but let’s think together. And we come up with something. Or, or maybe I say, okay, out of all the things that are on the table, here’s what I think we ought to, we ought to try. This is where we’re gonna start and, and here’s why. And people are like, okay, you know, good. And then if it’s not working, I am careful to come back and say, okay, I was wrong, <laugh>, I thought that was a good idea.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

But it hasn’t worked out and so we, we, we need to like, abandon this or tweak it or I pivoted to the other idea that you all came up with that’s working better. Right? So I also am re reporting out, I don’t have all the answers either. We’re all in uncharted waters here and I will make mistakes and I’m gonna own those. And I try to be very public about that as a part of that permission giving. And the other, the other part is caring for, for people who are doing the work. Hmm. I’m pretty relational leader. And so I do check in with people in a real way. And when I sense that people are overwhelmed because they’ve still gotta do their jobs in addition to this experimental thing that I want them to do I am, that’s another pain point, right?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Problem that I take responsibility to solve. And so I’ll ask questions, what can I relieve you of having to do right now so that you can lean into this opportunity that’s about prioritizing, right? Because we, we can’t do all things right. And we, and, and if we can do all things, we can do ’em all at the same time. Yeah. And so I also, I ask that question and I think with people, well, here’s some things I know that you’re doing. Could we pause on this one? What would be the, the negative outcome? What about if we get to it in two months? Or like, I am actively helping people prioritize so they don’t feel like I’m just adding ever more things to do on the same willing workers if, if you will. And I think that that helps as well for people to know I that I care and I want them to have the space to do this well and to celebrate what they’re working on.

Joe Gottlieb:

So that actually might have answered most of my next question I was gonna go to, but maybe there’s more to it. And that is, okay, this is a big project, right? You got your, you got the daily grind, everyone’s going through, how are you prioritizing progress across the different parts of this project relative to other institutional priorities? Because at the end of the day, prioritization is easy to say, hard to do. Yep. And there are these things that loom and Yeah. Giving guidance is, is key.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

It is. So what I, what I try to keep thinking about is how is this project actually in the service of that goal that if we could do this, we will be accomplishing the other things so that it’s not a competition, right? So, and, and a and a, but a but more to the point of prioritizing. There is a nuance to that. Because while we are trying to create, while we’re trying to build the better mousetrap, as it were, right? We still have students we have to serve right now that we can’t say to those students, we’re designing this really great round the clock advising tool. You guys talk amongst yourselves, <laugh>, advise yourselves two already, and we’ll get back to you in a year. <Laugh> Yeah. 18 months. Well, we’ve got this great thing built. I mean, we right. Be a little facetious here, but we, we, we certainly can’t do that.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

So even with this, there is a level of kind of back and and forth that’s happening because we, we do still need to support the success of the students that we have. And so thinking about how to do what we’re currently doing differently to create space, for example, I met with our advising team and I said, how could we trust our students to know what classes to enroll in? Again, not all of them, but you know, we require them to, to meet with an advisor to get their, get registered for their classes. What’s the correlation between those meetings and what students actually go out and register for <laugh>? And it’s like, well that’s pretty low. I said, exactly right. They are, when they, their portal opens, they can register for classes they’re doing whatever they’re doing anyway. So why are we forcing everybody through this narrow, you know, you gotta get in my your the appointment calendar so you can register.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Okay, so what are the students we can just trust to do it? We can say to them, look, you know the plan, email me if you’ve got a question or a problem. Like, the class you need isn’t being offered, but you really, really need it, otherwise you got it. If you did that, would it make it easier for you to not feel so burdened and overwhelmed to work with the students who need more time? They’re like, you know, wow. Yeah. I said, let’s figure out, let’s figure out that group. And this is an experiment, right? We’re gonna, we are gonna track it. We’re gonna see how they do when they don’t get that advising appointment with you and you figure out the group we’re gonna test on, let, let’s just, let’s just try this again, experimenting and it’s okay if we’re wrong. Right? And then you spend your time with these other students.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

That’s already a change in our advising approach. Hmm. Right. Even while we’re waiting to get the advising mobile app set up. So part of it is, yes, it’s prioritizing, but part of it is taking advantage of the fact that we’re going to wanna move in this direction to already start creating some efficiencies in what we’re currently doing. That’s a strategy to, to free up people to do both things. ’cause We are sort of needing to maintain two systems, the one that is and the one we’re building. And of course, at peak times of a semester, permission not to be working on the new thing. Yeah. Right? I mean like to just really focus on the students in front of us and let’s lean into the summer or Right. So that kind of pivoting with the rhythm of an academic year makes sense. So yeah. That, that’s kind of the general, general approach that that we’re taking.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And again, having as many conversations as we can. ’cause I don’t wanna break things <laugh>, right? As we’re as we’re doing this and we wanna make sure we’ve got as many eyes on it as possible, not just us senior level administrators but our advisors and our students as well. We tend to think we know what’s best for them. And so we don’t ask them <laugh>, but how can we, you know, crowdsource some students’ support as well to say, no, no, no, no, we actually like that part. Don’t, you’re gonna change. No, we want that. And I’m like, Ooh, <laugh>, thanks for letting me know. I was about to get rid of it to create an efficiency, right? So but yeah, it, it is a delicate dance of prioritizing that has to do with the rhythm of the people, the rhythm of an academic calendar and the need to be operating in two spaces at the same time.

Joe Gottlieb:

So beyond the mobile app, what are your top areas of innovation right now?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Man, you know, so this is pick, pick a couple. I know I was gonna, this gets us back to prioritizing, right? Right. ’cause You hear this list and you’re like, how are you doing that app again, <laugh>. But there are several that are, that are top of, of mine for me. You know, one is how we can partner more with industry so that we are the education partner for industry, you know, a lot of, of of companies now. Because they’ve lost confidence in higher education and because we haven’t been nimble enough and responsive enough to what they say they need, they’re now spinning up their own education units within what they do. That’s not a model that, that we wanna have industry feeling like they have to do. So how can we partner better and be a little more nimble and customize preparation that their workforce needs, and it’s not always in the form of a full degree so that they send their employees to us for upskilling Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

<Affirmative> reskilling or as the preparatory pathway. So how can we be more clearly a value add to industry and preparing the workforce that, that they need. That’s one thing that I’m, I’m thinking about. Another is stackable degrees, right? So one of the units that I oversee is our extension. So workforce development, you know, they’re providing all of that OSHA health and safety training for various industry partners and a lot with the Department of Transportation, all those kinds of things that’s non-credit certificates quality certifications for workforce projects that, you know, certifying quality, all that kind of stuff. Well, one of the things I’ve been talking to folks about here is how can we have our faculty review what we’re doing in that space and assign academic credit to it so that, you know, somebody might approach us because they need some quality certification or health and safety training, but as they see the quality of what we provide and they keep taking things they might discover and we could tell them, you know, you’re, you’ve taken so a much work over time here.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

You’re only a year away from actually getting a degree. And what they’ve done initially that was for non-credit, we can transfer into credit and create a completion pathway, right? Same thing about giving academic credit for prior experience and learning. Some of the classes that we teach are designed to give folks the, the skill to perform a thing. Well what about somebody who has that skill because they have been working in the job, they don’t need to take that class from us, they could already pass it. Right? Because this is what they do every day, so why don’t we just give ’em the credit for it and they can complete a degree much faster. So sort of stacking these various things together to help folks earn the degrees that we know will be transformational for them and their families. And I’m also thinking about, so now this is a, a a little bit out there.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

How can we break down our tendency in higher education to think in three credit hour increments? <Laugh> <laugh>, right? When we, when we design something, we’re gonna slap three credits on it. That’s just the measurement tool that we have. And so I’m trying to think to, to talk with faculty to, to think about how could you assign what would be one credit of that class that you’re teaching now for three credits, right? What portion of it, how could you parse out those three credits into three chunks, right? Not just the sum total at the end. And then if we could break those chunks apart, we’d have more bite sized ways of accumulating up for people to work toward degrees for at least components of degrees that they need while still working, caring for their families and so forth. And that’s hard to do if the only way that we deliver is in the big chunk of three credits. And so, you know, that’s top of mind for me as well, how <laugh> that that one is, is is gonna be interesting. All of higher education leans toward three credit hour increments. And I want us to be a little more modular than that.

Joe Gottlieb:

That would be transformational. Indeed. So let’s bring this to a close, Tamara. Sure. In summary, what three takeaways can we offer our listeners on what’s possible when the provost owns transformation?

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Well, first of all, I would say and, and don’t be afraid to experiment and fail, right? When you’re leading transformation, right being on the leading edge means there isn’t anything out there for you to follow. And so you’re going to be needing to experiment with something new. We can’t keep doing the same things and hope that there’s gonna be a different result. So leading transformation means that you’re gonna have to be comfortable or get comfortable with experimentation. And that also means getting comfortable with getting it wrong, but learning from those mistakes as you keep moving forward so that you don’t make the same mistakes over and over. So failure is data for ongoing progress. Second, I would say use a collaborative approach. And I certainly see that in the mobile app that we’re trying to do. This is gonna take a lot of people and not just senior leaders, not directors, but the folks who are the rubber meets the road to say, yes, I know it’s designed that way, but here’s how we’re actually using it.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

We created this workaround. ’cause That doesn’t work. You should know, don’t duplicate that thing. This is the work, right? Collaboration and feedback from a lot of people. It’s what it takes to lead bold change for technology in particular, I’d say be careful of letting technology lead in those decisions about guiding the university, right? I think we need to start with assessing what’s not working or not working as well as we want. What is it that’s creating that mismatch or that point of failure? What do we want instead? And thinking that through. And when you get to that point, then saying, okay, is there a tool out there that can help us do this thing we’ve identified is important for us to do? When we start searching first for the technology, then what we do is we bend ourselves to whatever the tool can do.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

And therefore it’s out of the, out of our minds things that we need. But that tool that we’ve chosen can’t do. So we limit our ability to be successful and we have tools leading our policy and our approach and, and that’s not going to, to help us get to where we wanna go. And then I just say with all changes that we’re, we’re accomplishing or, or trying to accomplish, be sure to build data structures in from the beginning. So in other words, the way that you’re gonna measure and assess if it’s working, it’s not just these things seem good to us to do and we’ll check in 10 years and see if the change we wanted has happened. No, I think it’s important to have these metrics and ways of knowing if it’s working, if it’s working at the pace you want, or if there are further changes needed to ensure that you hit your, your longer term goal and also makes transparent to everyone. ’cause You need people to do the work. Here’s how we’re all gonna know it’s working. So hang in there with the challenges, hang in there with the frustrations because we can see it is moving the needle. Great summary. Tamara, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Tamara Brown:

Thank you for the invitation. It’s been a great conversation

Joe Gottlieb:

And thanks to our guests for joining us as well. Have a great day and we’ll look forward to hosting you again on the next episode of TRANSFORMED.

Joe Gottlieb:

Yo, stop the music. Hey, listeners have transformed. I hope you enjoyed that episode and whether you did or not, I hope that it made you stop and think about the role that you are playing in your organization’s ability to change in the digital era. And if it made you stop and think, perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts, suggestions, alternative perspectives, or even criticisms related to this or any other episode, I would love to hear from you. So send me an email at info@Higher.Digital or Joe@Higher.Digital. And if you have friends or colleagues that you think might enjoy it, please share our podcast with them as you and they can easily find TRANSFORMED is available wherever you get your podcasts.