Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

First, this, what got you here won’t get you there. What will you do differently? Secondly, that flexibility is key to increase staff retention. Treat your people right, let them have flexibility, move on. And third, this is a student-focused market. It’s their market. And so how can you make it as easy as possible for students to find and choose you?

Joe Gottlieb:

That’s Ann Marie Klotz, Vice President for Development, enrollment, and Student Success at Naropa University. If you aren’t familiar, Naropa is an institution offering Buddhist inspired contemplative education, a blend of Eastern philosophy and western scholarship that seeks to produce students who know themselves as well as they know their disciplines. I spoke with Ann Marie about Naropa’s fascinating history, how Covid helped it discover innovations like remote meditation and how it’s growing rather than shrinking in the post pandemic, pre-demographic cliff era. Thanks to thoughtful shifts in its business model and expansion strategy. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Welcome to TRANSFORMED, a Higher Digital podcast focused on the new why’s, the new what’s and the new hows in higher ed. In each episode, you’ll experience hosts and guests pulling for the resurgence of higher ed while identifying and discussing the best practices needed to accomplish that resurgence. Culture, strategy and tactics, planning and execution, people, process, and technology. It’s all on the menu because that’s what’s required to truly transform. Hello, welcome and thanks for joining us for another episode of Transformed. My name is Joe Gottlieb, president and CTO of Higher Digital. And today I am joined by Dr. Marie Klotz, Vice President for development, enrollment, and student success at Naropa University. Ann Marie, welcome to TRANSFORMED.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here, Joe.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, I’d love to dive right into our, our fun topic, and that is changing the institutional business model for a post pandemic world. But before we get there, tell me a bit about your personal journey and how it connects you to the work that you do in higher ed.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Sure. Uh, listeners of your podcast may remember that old movie, my Big Fat Greek Wedding. Well think about that sort of type of family, but make them Italian. And that was basically my household. So surrounded growing up, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, all in the same house. And I always say that they had two jobs. One to pay the bills, put food on the table, and the other was to help provide for my Catholic school tuition. It really was a community that was coming together, uh, to pay for my education because they felt that like that was the most important thing. You go several years later to my own career in higher education. And I have similar thoughts about, you know, what it takes to get a student from entrance to graduation. It takes a community. So for me, it’s not surprising that I’ve applied those same skills learned as a child to be able to work in higher education, where I have worked for about 22 years now, um, at a variety of schools, public and private, all across the us.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Um, I’ve lived in New York now for the last 10 years. Um, I was a vice president at a school in the area and in the pandemic was, um, got a reach out from a tiny school in Boulder, Colorado that I had never heard of that was looking for some help and support, uh, named Naropa University. And I’ve been with them for three and a half years now, um, from my seat here in New York City, although I do travel to Colorado every single month. So that’s a little bit about my background and how I got here today.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, it’s great to see that you found your fit at Naropa despite working remotely almost 2000 miles away. ’cause that’s a fitting context for this discussion about how Naropa is driving its growth while maintaining, if not even increasing how well it fits with prospective students. So let’s, let’s first talk about what does fit mean at Naropa?

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Yeah. Well, Naropa is truly a special place. Uh, it was open, created as an a summer institute in the summer of 1974. So doing the math, we’re about to approach our 50th year and for any educational institution that began as a, shall we say, social experiment, that’s a huge milestone to hit. Um, our our founder said that, um, Naropa was a 500 year experience education just a little bit differently. And so it’s really exciting that we are nearly at year 50, um, of that 500 year experiment. Uh, most of our programs are designed to really help people who wanna go into mental health fields, who want to be healers, people who wanna make a difference. So therapists, mental health professionals, um, also the arts, creative writing, arts, art therapy. And I can think of a no greater time in recent history where the world couldn’t use more of those kinds of healers, um, in our environment.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Um, and so yeah, our approach in these areas has worked particularly well, um, at a time where a lot of schools have decreased enrollment for a variety of reasons. We’ve increased our enrollment about 30% in the last three years. So that’s, you know, huge thanks to faculty and staff who’ve gone above and beyond to create environments that are, are welcoming and sustainable for these students. So yeah, it’s been an interesting time, I think, for many in higher ed, but I’m really pleased to say that in, in our little corner of the world, it’s been one of growth.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, that’s impressive given the circumstance that many other schools have faced and had to deal with. And I, I agree with you, those are important fields. Our our world is hurting and needs more specialists in those domains. And perhaps more importantly, we need the, the superpowers of those professions to, to nurture what’s going on right now. Probably more now than at any time I can remember. So I, I really agree with you there. So that’s good background on Naropa. Let’s talk about the conditions that led to Europa’s most recent transformation. This podcast is about the transformation stories of institutions. So maybe take me through that.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Yes, it’s really exciting to think about in a variety of ways, but, um, you know, when the, when the pandemic happened, our school, like many were saying, how are we gonna get through this? What are we gonna do differently? So at the start of the pandemic, Naropa was just over 800 students. Um, and, and you know, I think for any school under a thousand students right now is a pretty challenging time in a, in a tuition driven world to think through how we are going to be sustainable and yet remain at a price point that’s viable for students. So when I started, we were right around 800 or so students. It was the start to midway point of the pandemic and a lot of, uh, things were looking dire, shall we say, across the country, both in the university and outside of it. Um, so one of the things that I said right away when I started with my team is what would it look like to hit a thousand students?

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

And they all looked at me through their Zoom screens as everybody was at home in those days, saying, well, uh, we can try. And so thanks to the, the resilience, the ability to pivot, uh, and the hard work of staff in particular faculty who had to learn overnight how to teach these small personalized intense courses online, we learned a little bit about how to do contemplative, meaningful, thoughtful, intentional teaching across the Zoom screen. What we found was that faculty did this very, very well, and that students talked a lot about how their courses were sort of a beacon of hope and an otherwise sort of dire time. Um, as we started to emerge a little bit from the pandemic, we said, well, what if this became a little bit of standard operating procedure where we took these courses and these programs that could be pivoted to online and offer students a choice in these programs.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

And so it started with our psychology program, which we have a, a BA degree in undergrad psychology. We decided to, to create an entirely new modality that’s a hundred percent online. Um, and we were really pleased to see a strong, um, cycle of students come through. Many of them older, many of them living nowhere near Boulder who had said, you know, Naropa had always been on our radar, but we weren’t in the position to live in Colorado. And so now this opens up a whole new market or demographic for us of, of people who want the teachings, the programs that we offer, but for whatever reason, this state or this city isn’t a viable option for them. So it was really exciting to see that faculty, um, were able to pivot. We have since added four online programs and we have a modality of our, of one of our graduate programs.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

It’s also pivoted to online. Our online programs are our highest enrolled programs, um, across the board. Um, and so, you know, a theme of what I think we’ll talk about here is in higher ed, I really think what got us here won’t get us there. And if you think about the getting us to here, maybe meaning the pandemic and the there being sort of the post pandemic, I really think we have to take a lot of the lessons learned and not just say, well, this was a thing we did for two years to try to, you know, hold down the the house for a minute. What did we learn that we could actually apply to help us thrive? And so with the addition of those online programs, we’ve also created a teaching and learning center that will help faculty learn how to create, um, strong intentional online programs.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

A lot more focused training and resources for online students. We were able to, as I mentioned, increase enrollment but also increase, increase retention by about 9%, um, through this lens. Which again, is not an easy thing to do with online students don’t have as much skin in the game, they can come and go as they please. Um, and so I think I’ve really been challenging everyone to think about our business model, how that has to shift and change as a result of these global changes that have happened. And I think Naropa is a good example of that.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, it’s an amazing story and I just can’t help but wonder if the uniqueness of Naropa was part of how you accomplished that. I mean, you said you mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, you left a clue there, which is, you know, you, the students found their courses to be a beacon of hope during a difficult time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And whereas it didn’t seem intuitive that contemplative studies and other forms of connectedness would translate, you found the opposite, were true. It was true. And in fact, because there was this great need, it, it’s just fascinating. That might have been the thread. Do you think that that’s possible and what, what, what might other institutions might learn about? Wow, it might take that depth of connection to pull this off? Well,

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Yeah, I think it’s not surprising that a lot of schools are interested in the online space. Certainly they think, you know, from a a resources perspective, it can be seen as a lucrative opportunity. But honestly, I think if you do it right, you realize like it takes just as much time and investment, um, maybe more, some might argue in order to be successful in the online space. So I, I would argue that it can’t simply be plug, plug and play. It still has to be with faculty who are extremely committed to teach their students no matter, you know, what modality. Um, you know, an example I can just give you is that in Boulder today, they’ve gotten a foot of snow. Uh, and so it’s officially a snow day, but business is happening as usual, classes are being taught, you know, people are working from, from home.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Um, you know, this doesn’t shut us down because we have the ability to be able, you know, to be successful in this space. In terms of if it translates to other schools, I think so I would say what is at the heart of your curriculum that students clearly love? Mm-Hmm. And how could you, you know, how could you make that on a bigger scale? I mean, schools like Arizona State, were one of the first players in the marketplace that was like, we want a lot of people to have an Arizona state, uh, education, even if they never step foot on our campus. Um, and so I think, you know, those traditional notions of you can only learn in, you know, this kind of way or you could only be a college student at this age, has definitely changed. I have students in my residence halls in their fifties, and I have students who are older than their professors in their online classes, but we like to believe that their added life wisdom only adds to the, you know, the rich experience of everyone in the classroom.

Joe Gottlieb:

Awesome. I, I know that, I know that your, you didn’t stop at merely transforming how your regional residential programs were delivered. You also saw an opportunity to bring this unique Naropa education experience to new markets via online programs. And, and I want you to go through one in particular, this BA psychology online that was, I think, your first foray into a full online program, but there were a few, you know, gears that that started to move that made that possible. So let’s talk a bit about that and also the counter example, right?

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Sure. I mean, a couple things I would just share is that, um, we had to learn a lot. It wasn’t all, you know, sunshine and Roses boom, online programs, let’s go. So, you know, one of the first things we learned is that because we knew we were attracting an older demographic, we didn’t realize in some cases too late for a couple of students that we had to be able to provide students with a strong level of, uh, technological support. We had some students who might have been away from the classroom for 20 years, and they’re coming back and we’re saying, we’re learning, and, you know, in an asynchronized, uh, zoom learning environment, go to it. No. So we, we learned quickly that, you know, having a meeting with the IT department was really important for the first semester of any online program so that students could ask questions of IT professionals about things that they might wanna know about their course management system and what do they do when they have problems.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

So, you know, I mean, admittedly we lost a couple of students in that first year who felt frustrated because they didn’t, you know, the technology wasn’t serving them and they sort of didn’t know what to do. So, um, we learned through that. We learned that we had to create as many resources in the online space as we do in the in-person space. And we’re still growing in that way. But for example, having a liaison in our student government who is an online student representative who, who works to create resources for the online students. Um, most schools have a, a student on the board of trustees, we do too. She’s 40 and lives in Seattle and is in an online program and travels to campus a couple times a year to join the board meetings. So we’re really looking at ways to be able to, um, infuse online students into the mainstream.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Um, right now we have about 40% of our students are online, so it isn’t quite yet a majority, but it’s getting to be close. And so we think all the time about, uh, our resources and how do we make sure that any program or opportunity that’s happening on campus can be accessed in some ways. Um, so yeah, it’s definitely a lot of learning. The last thing I will say on that, which I think we’ve done really beautifully, is we have taken that same approach with students to faculty and staff. So again, I told, I talked about how I’m sitting here in my home from New York City, um, working with 14 departments, uh, at at Naropa campus in Boulder. Um, we have my head of marketing, uh, comes to us from California where he often sits on his porch in the sun and makes me jealous.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

We’ve got some academic advisors in Michigan. Um, what we’ve been able to do is recruit and retain, uh, a little bit more diverse staff, um, while they’re being paid, you know, Colorado wages, even if they don’t live in a metropolis or an area like Colorado. So what it’s done is it has allowed us to recruit top talent, I think, at a decent pay structure, um, with a lot of flexibility. Uh, and so when I think about some of the people that I have, our head of development is in Tulsa. Um, and so, you know, it requires a heightened level of working across time zones for sure. But I know that I wouldn’t have been able to get half the people that I’ve gotten if I said that they had to be limited to the Boulder area. So for me, I see a huge win. A couple of our faculty chairs are in New Jersey, um, and they’re at the top of their field doing incredible work. Um, so to me it’s really opened up the possibility of, of who gets to be a part of Naropa and who gets to serve our students.

Joe Gottlieb:

So what’s a, what’s a good counter example? I know that there’s, there’s some areas where you haven’t, you’ve decided we’re not gonna force this online thing on some aspects of, of the program maybe. Sure. Give a couple examples of there and talk to what that feels like, looks like. How do you maintain the differences?

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Yeah, and so we have a program that’s been called Wilderness Studies. I think it’s changed now to nature studies, but that’s a great example of one where there can be some remote elements, but you know, they’re off in the woods and doing important, exciting things that can be and should be done. Um, you know, together in person in the classroom. Um, even for some of our online programs, they come together for these intensives, you know, a week or two at a time to be able to do some of the things that maybe you just can’t replicate. Um, similarly, we have a summer writing program that’s open to anyone, both Naropa students and non Naropa students. And we found that a few of our students from the online BA psychology made it a point to sign up for that summer writing program because they wanted to be in person and have that connection to the school that they would, you know, normally never be on campus for. So, you know, again, I never think that, um, we can replace what the in-person experience is, but I think we can get really, really good at understanding how to transform what it means to be in community, uh, in the online space.

Joe Gottlieb:

I love that combination of not just thinking of hybrid at the course level, but thinking about it at the overall experience level. So being smart like you and you, you alluded to it even with remote employees. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, a lot of the work can be done remotely, but we do assemble to build team unity and culture or do certain face-to-face things that we, we feel are best done face-to-face. And the fact that some of your online program students in the BA psychology program added this offering to be able to be there in person. Neat thing that’s going on there. Neat dynamic. So I wanna shift gears here. So beyond the IT support that you discovered early was necessary to improve, to make sure people were having success with your online programs, what other adjustments did you make in order to deliver a more complete online experience?

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Yes, I’m happy to share a couple, and I will still share that we still have a long way to go as I think most schools do in this space. But the first one is that if we are a school that’s focused on mental health and wellness, how do we provide support for students who need it, who are not in Colorado? So, you know, typically for our, our counselors who are licensed in Colorado, they can treat and meet with students in the state of Colorado but are not licensed to help our out-of-state students. So we partnered with a company called Christie Connect, which provides us 24 7 mental healthcare services. So, you know, Christmas, Hanukkah, Sunday night at 10:00 PM there’s always somebody who can take your call and can be a resource for you. So that was the first thing that we wanted to focus on. The second thing that we’ve done recently, um, and it may seem like a contemplative university and AI are diametrically opposed, but I might offer that if AI can provide additional support for students who need it, that it’s actually quite in line with what we’re doing.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

So we partnered with a company called Ed Sites and they build us an AI powered chat bot. And so what it does is it allows students at any point, again, 24 7 to ask it questions, basic questions, right? Um, when can I apply for financial aid? Um, you know, uh, um, how do I pick my courses, uh, what’s the first day of classes? And so these might seem like very basic things, but we estimate in the first four months of, of use, which is where we’re at right now, we’ve saved about a hundred person, a hundred hours of person work, like person work and response and email and reach out. And the other thing that it’s been able to do is it’s flagged for us already almost 30 students who they’re saying, you know, based on their questions and their answers, we think this person could be at risk of leaving the university and we suggest that you do some additional outreach and support.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

And so that’s been hugely valuable for my dean of students team to say, I have this list of people that now we can go back to in real time immediately and make sure that we’re connecting with them. So, you know, again, what got you here won’t get you there. If you would’ve said to me a few years ago, we’re doing online mental health and we’re having chat bots help with basic questions, I might be a little surprised, but, um, you know, even in the first few months of doing this, uh, all students are signed up, for example, for that chat box and only 4% of students have opted out so far, which is completely their right. Um, and the questions that we got in the first few days, it was overwhelming. You know, we were already into the thousands of questions with only 1100 students. Um, and so I think we’re constantly asking ourselves what’s next? Um, and that’s something I’m really proud of at this university is that we don’t sort of just rest on our laurels because we know the market’s changing every day.

Joe Gottlieb:

Nice. Okay. So if we, my sense is that there’s a, there’s a newfound agility at Naropa that, that the pandemic really helped force, but Naropa is, it feels to me being very thoughtful about how it’s leveraging what it learned in that process. So how are you leveraging that further to contemplate other opportunities for expansion on both your market and as well as your mission?

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Yeah, so we’re pretty diligent about doing surveys, particularly for our online students at the end of each semester to ask what worked and what didn’t. And I will fully admit, Joe, that the first time we got the first survey back from the first program, I was kind of opening with like one eye open because I’m like, what are we gonna find in this survey? But we were really pleasantly surprised to feel that, to learn that people felt like they had 100% wraparound support from all areas of the university. And so that felt good that people didn’t feel like they were on an island, that they were alone. Um, we know that that the market, the market is shifting more towards an older demographic of student. And so I’m constantly thinking, what is a second career or third career person? What might they be looking for, um, in our programs?

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Um, and so in terms of what’s next, you know, I just returned from a graduate symposium on the future of enrollment and adult learners. And one thing that they said with me that I keep thinking about is, you know, every school wants to have this really cool name for a new academic program, right? Something out there that nobody else is doing. And basically the, the, at this symposium, the experts were saying, please don’t do that. These, these students are coming back to school after maybe 10, 15, 20 years. They don’t wanna try to have to figure out, you know, how they find a a criminal justice program, what is it really named, you know, for example. And so that is, was a good reminder to me that sometimes simple is best. And so as I think about the future and what’s next, I’m gonna be constantly talking to my team about, um, what is easy, how can we make this as easy as possible for students to find us and choose us? And so to me that’s really our, our theme as I think about increased enrollment and retention, keep it simple and make it easy.

Joe Gottlieb:

Got it. Okay. Well now let’s zoom back. Let’s zoom out out all the way before we bring this to a close. And there’s a strong culture at Naropa. It has a, a very interesting history and past, it’s relatively young still, but 50 years is, is uh, 50 years after all, right? And I, as you said, for a social experiment for something that began as a social experiment, that’s a lot of staying power. So yeah, the culture had to be central to that. But how have you, how have you seen the culture even start to

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Yeah, I mean I think we, we see it both qualitatively and quantitatively. So for example, 78% of our undergrad students right now are transfer students. I’m gonna say that again. Nearly 80% of undergrads who find us are transfers. And so, you know, one of the things that we always say to them is, um, you know, we know we were not the place where you started your collegiate career, but we’re so happy that you’re, that we are gonna be the place where you finish. And so I think it’s recognizing that more and more students are trying schools out to see if it’s a good fit. And we’re okay not being first to be asked to the dance Joe, you know, we can be second or um, you know, but what I found is that when I go to graduation and I see a woman cross the stage with two babies on her hips and she’s saying I couldn’t have gotten through Covid and the having of my children without strong faculty and staff like this supporting me to the finish line.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

I mean, to me this means we’re doing something right. And so, you know, I don’t know if we’re ever gonna be a school that’s 30,000 people, but I think you can scale up this level of support as long as you do it, you know, really intentionally. Um, and so, you know, I think what we’re really looking for in terms of what’s next is high credit transfer students, places, can we be that destination place for, for veterans for second career, third career folks for parents, you know, all these people who thought that maybe higher ed had passed them by. We also hear a lot of people talking about that. Um, they’ve kind of been called to do this work with mental health healing and wellness, and so we can be a place for that as well. So yeah, I think it’s really exciting to think about what’s next. So, uh, as much of a type A person as I am, I would love to map it out completely, but I also wanna remind myself that I have to provide space for what could be. And I think that’s the most exciting part too.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, what I hear in that also is that largely it is an extension of the same original principles of Naropa that produced its founding, right? It’s not that you’re deviating significantly from that. You’re finding ways to, to reach out to more, to more communities that might benefit from that. You’re opening your doors to people that might not have chose chosen you first, but they might choose you to finish. Um, great message and, and, and seems very sensible and very fitting with the challenge that lies ahead, right? Increasing the overall education of the planet, refranchising more people that have perhaps been disenfranchised by circumstance or otherwise. So let’s bring this to a close. What, what three takeaways would you offer our listeners on this, this topic of changing the institutional business model for a post pandemic world?

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Yes. Well, thank you again for the opportunity. Um, it’s been a good conversation. A couple of things that I hope to leave your listeners with is, again, first this, what got you here won’t get you there. What will you do differently? Secondly, that flexibility is key to increase staff retention, treat your people right, let them have flexibility, move on. And third, this is a student-focused market. It’s their market. And so how can you make it as easy as possible for students to find and choose you?

Joe Gottlieb:

Great summary. Anne-Marie, thanks for so much for joining us today.

Dr. Ann Marie Klotz:

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a great conversation.

Joe Gottlieb:

And thanks for our guests for joining us as well. Have a great day and we’ll look forward to hosting you again on the next episode of TRANSFORMED.

Yo, stop the music. Hey, listeners have transformed. I hope you enjoyed that episode and whether you did or not, I hope that it made you stop and think about the role that you are playing in your organization’s ability to change in the digital era. And if it made you stop and think, perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts, suggestions, alternative perspectives, or even criticisms related to this or any other episode, I would love to hear from you. So send me an email at Info@Higher.Digital or Joe@Higher.Digital. And if you have friends or colleagues that you think might enjoy it, please share our podcast with them as you and they can easily find TRANSFORMED is available wherever you get your podcasts.