Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

The course in Chaucer gave me the skills to understand how to start researching a single author. I could do that with Hemingway, I could do that with Maya Angelou. I, I learned the skills on how to access the debate and the discussion without the need of a course. And that’s what liberal learning is about. How do I help the student get the skills they need so they can access any content, because content is expanding and changing all the time.

Joe Gottlieb:

That’s Bryon Grigsby, president of Moravian University, a small private institution in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, where Grigsby himself earned his first degree and was in his words, transformed by a professor, now 94, that he still takes to lunch every month. While the name of this podcast reflects the liberal learning and applied arts andragogy that Moravian emphasizes, it contains many nuggets on program innovations, leadership practices, and industry perspectives that I found useful. And I hope that you do as well.

Welcome to TRANSFORMED, a Higher Digital podcast focused on the new why’s, the new what’s, and the new how’s in higher ed. In each episode, you will experience hosts and guests pulling for the resurgence of higher ed, while identifying and discussing the best practices needed to accomplish that resurgence. Culture, strategy and tactics, planning and execution, people, process, and technology. It’s all on the menu because that’s what’s required to truly transform. Hello, welcome and thanks for joining us for this special presidential series episode of TRANSFORMED. My name is Joe Gottlieb, President and CTO of Higher Digital, and today I, I’m joined by Dr. Bryon Grigsby, president of Moravian University. Bryon, welcome to TRANSFORMED.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Thanks, Joe. I’m happy to be here. What do you wanna talk about?

Joe Gottlieb:

I’m glad you asked. I wanna talk about your thoughts on crafting the new liberal learning and applied arts. But first, tell me a little bit about your origin story and how it helps motivate you for the work that you do in higher education.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

So, I’m president of my alma mater, a place I love dearly. And I was transformed here. So thi this was not a place I did well at initially. I came here to play soccer and be a dumb jock. And I met, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And I met a teacher, a professor here that transformed my life and I wanted to be like him. And so he helped me go for my master’s in doctorate in English. I take him out to lunch twice a month still. He’s 94 years old. And we have great conversations about string the string theory and metaphysics and deconstruction. And so eventually I got my dream. I was a faculty member and a faculty and the facul and a new president at the college I was teaching at, dragged me in the office one day and said, Hey what do you think about administration?

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And I answered, I think you guys are fine, but you wear funny suits. And he literally stopped and said, no, what about you? Becoming one of the funny suits? And I had never thought about being in administration. I, my role model was this chair of the English department, and I was just gonna be a chair of an English department at best. And so I, I went into administration. I loved it because I felt that I could impact so many more students in such a more profound way than I was as just a faculty member teaching my one or two or three sections. And so if I was gonna work this hard and do this much activity, I was gonna do this for my alma mater. And so I, I planned I, it took me 15 years to get the job, but I got, eventually got the job after they told me that the No once mm-Hmm. I came back again and said, no, I don’t think you heard me the first time. And and so I got the job, and I’ve been here for 11 years, been, and it’s, and it’s wonderful every single day.

Joe Gottlieb:

Awesome. I’d, well, I love the, the personal side of that, the persistence of connecting to your alma mater and getting a chance to lead it now, really enjoying it. And also the original motivation to be a leader in the first place. Right? It comes, it comes from, it sounds like your interest and need to have an even greater impact with doing the thing that you loved. So taking on the more indirect role of vis-a-vis teaching, but in, in leading an organization that teaches it it’s really good core motivation.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Yeah. Well, thanks.

Joe Gottlieb:

So we wanna dive into this, this topic of the new liberal learning and applied arts. And I’m gonna let you describe it, but what gets me really excited about this, really two things. One, we’ve had this beloved, this treasured thing called the liberal arts degree for, for many, many years now. And it served us very well in terms of fashioning balanced thinking, people, <laugh>, right? I won’t even say leaders, right? It, it’s balanced thinking people, not all to be leaders, but for sure good leadership candidates can come from that. But it also reflects, I think, a shift in the way that we’re grappling with society’s changes. And and while that liberal arts degree has served us very well for a very long time, there is an important shift that I wanna let you talk about. So, in your mind, also, are we raising the bar here? Are we talking about creating an even higher actualization level for students to come out of such a program? And if so, how? Tell me about this.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

So I would say the first thing is liberal arts has always been in fluxx and a, a, a strange definition. So, and I’m gonna use large brush brush strokes here, and historians can argue with me later in the comments. But, you know, it starts out in the, in the Roman period as liberal arts means that the skills that people need to be the Roman bureaucrats to run the society of the Roman people build aqueducts, do all those kind of things. It goes into the Middle Ages. Liberal arts becomes those skills that you hear, God, everything is focused on how do I mu from music to astronomy to writing? It’s, how do I hear the divine? Hmm. And so the liberal arts evolves into the Renaissance, and it becomes the identification of the individual and creativity and, and moves into that realm. And then when it gets into more of our modern era you have Harvard, Dartmouth, and Yale all agree upon, we’re gonna create these skills to get farm, essentially farm workers, farm boys into the industrialization, and be on factory floors.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And they’re gonna need a certain set of skills to manage people and to think about what, what needs to be read, what they need to be knowledgeable about. And so, at this moment, you’re looking at the liberal arts. We, we jokingly called it the encyclopedia Blowing in the wind, or the, you know an inch deep and a mile long. So this is where you have Beowulf to Virginia Wolf courses, massive survey courses to give students the content. You’re filling them with content. Ironically, Dartmouth Harvard and Yale leave this model 10 years after they create it and go and do something totally different than this, this specific thing. But we held onto this in a lot of ways. This is where jokes about the, the on the factory floor. I don’t know the answer.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Go ask the college boy. The college boy knows a lot, but can’t do anything. All those things occur in that time period. The where we are right now is, you know, we created the internet. So how much of the encyclopedia blowing in the wind do we need when we have a calculate a, a computer in our hand that can look up that information? And so what’s been turned on its head is we still need liberal learning. We still need the skills. I, I need to be a quantitative, qualitative analysis. I need to communicate well. I need to work well in teams. I need to be a leader. I need to do ethical reasoning. All those things are still necessary. But instead of being an inch wide and a mile long, it’s now an inch wide and a mile deep. And because we’ll never keep up with content, if we, if we hold to the, to the Dartmouth, Harvard, and Yale model, we make more content every year than all of human history before.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

So you’re never gonna keep up with that. The only way you’re going to keep up with this is if we create the skills of the individual so they can transfer that across segments of content. And the best description I give is, I learned that here at Moravian as an English major. I had the choice of either taking Chaucer or Shakespeare. I took the Chaucer course because that advisor who I talked about really thought that that would be much better suited for me. I ended up becoming a medieval list. So I never took another course in called Shakespeare. I have three degrees all in English, a BA, a MA, and a PhD. And I’ve never once taken a Shakespeare course.

Joe Gottlieb:

Wow.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

I wrote three chapters of my dissertation and, and which became my first book on Shakespeare. I’ve I’ve written publications for Shakespeare quarterly. I was hired as the Shakespeare specialist when I went with, at centenary university. So how could I have possibly done that when I don’t even have a course in Shakespeare? Well, because the course in Chaucer gave me the skills to understand how to start researching a single author, I could do that with Hemmingway, I could do that with Maya Angelou. I, I learned the skills on how to access the debate and the discussion without the need of a course. And that’s what liberal learning is about. How do I help the student get the skills they need so they can access any content? Because content is expanding and changing all the time.

Joe Gottlieb:

That’s wonderful. And, and it really, really coherently articulate the power and the necessity of that approach, right? You just, we won’t be able to keep up with content. The content is readily available now with ai even more convenient, and it’ll be get convenient further still over time. How do I cope with all that, with the, the right tool set? So, I’d love to now turn this inwardly a bit and have you talk about how are you applying liberal learning and applied arts to the way that you select people you hire for your leadership team, and how you develop them and collaborate with them and create culture with them.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

So we all know that there are skill sets. We all have a, a assembly of skillsets that we, we, when we’re at our finest, there are things we like to do. And they, and at times when under stress, there are things we don’t like to do. And, and we just went through a session with it’s a variation on the disc. But my entire team knows all their attributes and how they work and how they manage. And we, we don’t wanna be a team that all has the one set of skills. We need a diversification of, of skill members and team members on our, on our side. So because only that way will we make the best decisions possible, we are regularly talking. So the mission statement for Arabian piece of it is that we are creating transformative leaders in a world of change.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And we regularly talk about how do we model that? How do we model for our students that we’re transformative leaders in a world of change? We talked a lot about that going through Covid, where we decided to open the minute the governor said we could open, because we were creating nurses, we were creating physical therapists, we were creating occupational therapists. We were, we were the central institution, this region, this for healthcare. And you couldn’t do that virtually, that you, you need to do that hands-on. And so we had to figure out how to make everybody safe. We thought the experience of playing sports was really important. And so our sports teams played that first fall. We were the only school in our conference still competing during, during that. But this was all a representation for our students that we’re, we are showing how to be leaders through our actions and wanting them to experience what that meant. So I think we radio is one of the oldest institutions in America. It’s founded in 1742. And it’s the first to educate women. I think one of the keys of, of one of the keys of Moravian is that it finds the, it it finds people who other institutions look over and sees value in educating them. And so we end up with a lot of staff here and, and faculty who care about teaching primarily and transforming young people.

Joe Gottlieb:

Interesting. So, so that, that sets up a, a really, I like the way you described that, right? First of all, harnessing diversity, recognizing that understanding each other’s attributes, really leading by example, acting as a transformative leader to demonstrate the behaviors that you want your students to be able to model and, and, and obtain their evolution for participation in society. And I know you also have a lot of, a lot of ideas. So, so as a, as a, as a ongoing strategic thinking construct at Moravian, right? You just mentioned one, like, you know, you tackled educating women, you know, really provocative thing back in the day, right? But first to do that was a big risky venture at the time. You haven’t stopped doing those sorts of things. So how do you feather the throttle of change vis-a-vis your own progress with this philosophy that you’re applying, but then as you deal with your, you know, at any given time, your present cultural capacity or, or what the conditions might allow, be it covid or, or other obstructions that you see in the way?

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Right. So I, I think it’s always getting back to the mission and the history. Moravian is founded on the beliefs of John Amos MIUs Wi, who is considered the father of modern education 70 17th century Moravian Bishop outta the Czech Republic, who lived as a refugee most of his life. He turned down the first presidency of Harvard, which we’re fond, very fond of mentioning. And he, two of his statements, I think, def define us. The first is education is worthy of all. He said, men and women, rural and urban boys and girls noble and ign noble. And that has been the defining role of Moravian. So Moravian, yes, started as a, a school for women back in 1742. It’s, it’s a crazy idea that the first thing they do when they come to the new World is establish a school for, for girls.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

But they believed that they would never have an educated society if they didn’t educate the women first, because the women are the first educators of the children. And so that was pretty radical for the 18th century. Unfortunately, it’s still pretty radical today. But then they started educating the Native Americans. And one of the interesting things is that the teachers, the Moravian teachers learned Lenape, and they spoke to the Native Americans and educated them in their language. Then the Moravians went on to educate the slaves down in the Caribbean islands. And when Jewish students couldn’t be accepted during World War ii, world War I and World War II at Main colleges, Moravian, openly accepted Jewish students. So there’s this ongoing, we were, we housed the first generation to college honor society and establish that so many of these things are about seeing potential in people that other institutions pass over.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And I think that component with the idea that NCE says that education should concern itself with that which concerns society, and that’s the heart of liberal learning. You have to constantly be evolving your institution for the society and what the society needs. It cannot be stagnant. We have done this at Moravian. We, we, when I started here, we’re about 1,100 students primarily all undergraduate, residential. We’re now we’re about 2,800 students in about 10 years. 30% of those are graduate students. We now offer a doctoral program a couple doctoral programs, many master’s programs. We’re big into the healthcare arena. That growth has been substantial in 10 years. Hmm. Where our growth is coming now, where we’re looking at is connecting the dots that we haven’t done before. And, and that’s on the lower level.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

So how do we do a certificate program? How do we do we do associate’s programs? How do we help that single mom that’s working at a job and wants to improve her, her wages with a, a micro credential or a certificate program, or a necessary associate’s degree that gets her into the healthcare arena, and then move her on from there. That, that’s where we’re, we’re looking at now. My board will tell you that I have more ideas than then they think it’s humanly possible for the staff or anyone to do. I’m very good at being told no and we’re not doing that. But they also mentioned one thing that I will never forget is that when you have this many ideas and this many opportunities, some are going to fail, and the board has to be accepting of that not everything can succeed.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And that’s been greatly helpful to my staff to have the freedom to fail. My famous, most famous failure is I tried to get us a vaudeville theater on, in the center of Bethlehem. And I, the board allowed me to go find donors for it and and get the funding for it. And it was about $28 million which I could maybe get 5 million at any given point. And eventually I failed. But they gave me the opportunity to fail, and it got knocked down, and now it’s an apartment building, but that’s beside the point. So you do, you do have to have the freedom to fail as you do this, and you do have to listen to people who are helping you throttle back that the institution can’t deal with another project or another thing to do.

Joe Gottlieb:

Yeah. So important. And that the fact that you can talk about that, that somewhat epic failure don’t pun intended, is is interesting in its own right. Right. It’s a great way to lead by example to say, Hey, you know what? We’re gonna, we’re gonna fail. And I can own the, the failures that I’m associated with because they come with the package of innovation. They come with the package of pushing and finding the next thing, right? And then they, they present a lot of learning opportunities. So what I’m also hearing is just the, the mission that you described, those two main tenets, they, it still leaves a lot of room to do a lot of different things. And for a school of your size to do those efficiently enough to, to stay solvent must be a challenge, right? Because, and yet, so it must be really, really merciless focus and, and effective collaboration that gets you through the day. But on that topic, how do you, if, if, if, if that set of ideas happening is filtered and we let certain things fail, and that’s okay, that that helps us understand an aspect of the flow, but how do you then also separate progress on strategic objectives from the daily operational necessities that just must be done to, to run an institution? How do you balance those things and how do you finding room still for those strategic objectives?

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Well, it’s interesting that you pose that, because right now we got a board approval to move from strategic planning to strategic thinking. So what we are doing right now is we’re doing a three year evergreen strategic thinking document. So generally there’s academic excellence. There’s how we work together as, as a community. There’s a financial resources and it’s a pyramid. Those are the, the large headers. Generally we know what we’re doing next year pretty well. We kind of know what we’re doing in year two, and we sort of know what we’re doing in year three. So we’re always in a three year evergreen document where we are asking the community on a cycle, what should we be doing year two and year three, here’s our best thinking right now, have at it, add things, change things. And then when year two comes up to year one, we ask ’em again about the next two years.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And so, and the goal here, and my, I my belief in strategic planning is that it’s how few battles can we have to win the war? Not how many battles can we have. So I, I am strong believer in the law of diminishing returns of strategic goals. Mm-Hmm. That said, you, if you have one strategic goal, one gets done. If you have two strategic goals, one gets done. If you have three strategic goals, none get done. So the less strategic goals you have, mm-Hmm. But the right ones are the ones that will get the institution ahead. Now the criticism for this new model, which has been voiced by the board is that there’s no BHAG. You know, there’s what, what is the strategic goal that spans 10 years which you would have with a traditional 10 year strategic plan document or something like that.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

I’ve mitigated that because I’ve, I’ve shown them that many of these strategic things are so big, they span five years to get them operational and fully set into the, the, the operations of the institution. So how we work at it is the strategic plans. Now, this three year evergreen document where, which is each vice president essentially has oversight. They are my goals that the board approves. But then the, it’s the what we wanna accomplish. And then the vice president is in charge in how we do that. And after it gets done, it goes into tactical operations, and then as part of that vice president’s goals from then on. So that’s how we keep moving the strategic and the tactical. We, we work we work our, our, our cabinet works on lencioni’s book death by meeting.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

So we divide up, we only do tactical. We have, we have on Tuesdays, I just got out of it a little bit ago our tactical meeting, which is an hour long meeting where we’re just dealing with the operational issues of the, of the day. Then we have a four hour strategic planning meeting once a quarter where we’re looking at the KPIs and the metrics on the in Asana on how those projects are developing. So, you know, after Covid, we had a, a five-year strategic plan, and Covid hit us in year three. And it, we might as well have just thrown it out the, the window. And, and we started strategic planning. We did strategic planning, we acquired a seminary. Over that period of time when lots of places were hunkering down, we were still doing new things, but covid changed everything.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And it was at that moment that I was really thinking about we could be doing strategic thinking all the time as an institution rather than compartmentalizing it into this five year plan. And then having a year and a half, two year break as we, you know, it’s almost like a capital fundraising situation. And what do you do with those two years that you’re breaking in between setting up the next strategic plan? You, you have to be doing something. Yeah. So this strategic thinking, you know, my hope is it will create an institution that is much more flexible, dynamic, and responsive to what’s going on in the society, because we’re only focusing on really the next three years as best as we can see them.

Joe Gottlieb:

I love the thinking. And it’s an area where we’ve been also working with a lot of institutions and thinking about where this goes. And, and in the, in the, to the board criticism about, about the BHAG, the, the big Harry audacious goal as it is, and, and in particular, the long, the long game projects that might require you, it comes, what comes to mind are, you know, how much can you get done with four years as president? Like, you know, is, is there a, is there a quote term limit that prohibits certain things? Well, I would say we’re gonna be re-imagining all those things with this new apply approach to thinking anyway. So we aren’t gonna be able to afford thinking about anything in a 10 year horizon. We’ve gotta break it into pieces. And sure, maybe you link together three or four, two year steps towards a grand vision for how, let’s say you establish a new program and getting it running and getting it thriving and getting it churning out results. Right? But, but that’s ’cause you broke it down and it, it fit quite easily into that plan and could maybe have only fit into that plan, that approach to thinking.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Right, right.

Joe Gottlieb:

So, I can’t leave this conversation without asking a little bit about ai. So we’ve talked about some fun stuff. We’ve only, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve bumped into the topic maybe super briefly, but how are you thinking about AI and its role in the, the new liberal arts liberal learning and applied arts?

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Well, I think, and my faculty have heard this over and over we have to we have to embrace it. If we’re preparing people, if we’re preparing young people for the world they’re gonna face and the workforce they’re gonna become, we have to help them show, show them how to do it. I was at the GSV conference, A-S-U-G-S-V conference and I have to admit, I, I took a red eye back from that conference where they were all talking about AI and the end of higher ed. And I took a red eye back and went into my board meeting. I showered and went to the board meeting, and I, I scared the hell outta my board because I, I was sleep deprived and had seen kind of the possibility of the end of higher education, or had been told the end of higher education was coming after a night’s sleep, the board was much more relaxed, and I was much calmer the next morning and was ready to start embracing some of the aspects.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

So one of the things that I love is Ethan Mullock at at Wharton talks about how he’s embraced AI last year. He used to create a business his, his creating a business plan was an MBA course he had, it took him 15 weeks to work with his class. And by the end, they created a business plan he talked about. So that business plan is now created in two weeks. We run it through ai. So we get one that we all agree upon and we like, and then we build the item that we’re going to launch on a 3D printer, and then we field test it, and we take the analytics from that, and we put back into AI and create a marketing plan and a manufacturing plan. And by the end of 15 weeks, we launch a new company.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

So think about the change in education for those students. And what I love about this is he didn’t say, oh, ban this. Don’t ever use this. Instead, he became an expert with it and showed his students how to use this so they could become even more strategic and powerful as they become young adults and, and take on leadership roles. So I, I’ve also been hit with someone who brought this point to me that when we grew up, we can remember the days when you weren’t allowed to do use a calculator. Hmm. And what a calculator did was level the playing field. It leveled the playing field for people who couldn’t memorize the times tables or couldn’t memorize, and they could plug in and they could do math equal to those people who were really good in that area.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And I, and he said to me, this is simply leveling the playing field in a lot of other areas. And those that are uncomfortable with that are the ones that have power in those areas because they’re losing power. So I, I am hoping that all colleges embrace this and that, you know, the, the the, the line that you know, AI is not gonna replace your, your job. The person who knows AI is going to replace your job take your job. So, you know, we’re gonna become much more proficient using the technology. And there are gonna be downsides. There are downsides with every technology. The internet has great downsides to all the successes it has. Social media has great downsides to all the successes. It has. Any technology produces some negative results. This is gonna produce negative results too, but it’s also gonna produce a lot of positive results.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

And and I’m excited for higher education that embraces that because I do think it, it positions us with liberal learning, with the skills and attributes. You know, the humanities in general is the study of human creation. Hmm. And so AI is a new form of human creation that we can create more with and study more with. So integrating the humanities into producing students who are robot proof, who are thinking deeply or thinking critically, and who are using these tools to come become even better, is what I think colleges and universities should be doing.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, I love the calculator reference. I’ve heard it before, but actually your point of emphasis is very fitting, particularly given the role of Moravian in noticing, not that it just helps people step up to higher math, but in fact it levels the playing field for basic math, and that allows more people to participate at a higher level versus just focusing on how it might advance one individual. So let’s, let’s summarize what are three takeaways we can offer our listeners on the new liberal learning and applied arts?

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Well, I think the role of higher education has never been important. Never been more important than it is today. I know there’s lots out there in the media that are saying that, you know, higher ed is gonna be, is going to be over. And you know, that’s been projected since radio and TV and MOOCs and the internet and everything else. We, we are making more information than we’ve ever had. We need people who can use that information, who can be producers of new technology and producers of, and users of technology and higher education. Just today, Georgetown came out with a report that by 20 26, 70 2% of jobs are gonna require some kind of college education. So it’s never been more important for us to, to embrace technology and prepare young people for for the future that’s out there.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

I think, I think the way most colleges and universities are gonna go is into the applied liberal arts. And they’re gonna be focused on andragogy which is how adults learn. We’re we are preparing people for adulting and a workforce. So this is about an experience. Higher ed is about an experience in general. It can be produced online, it can be produced in residential colleges. But it is, it is those moments that you are sitting with a faculty member who’s an expert in the field. You’ve been given all the content, you’ve absorbed the content, and now you are going to work with your team members on producing the answer to the problem. And then you’re gonna get criticized and you’re gonna get evaluated, and you’re gonna have to reflect on that. And did I do things well and did I, could I have done things better?

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

I will tell you that my, my favorite professor wrote on a paper that I still hold today on Don Byron’s Don Ewen. And he wrote on the top, as you go to graduate school, you will, sometimes you will come to learn that sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. In this case, you lost C plus <laugh>. And I keep that as a way to remain humble. But that is criticism. That’s what you’re, you’re paying to be criticized and improve on your skills. And I, lastly, I encourage faculty to embrace change. If we are to do our mission, which is to prepare young people to lead our society to be active members of our society, we can’t not embrace new forms of technology that they’re gonna experience in the workforce or that, and or that, or ideas that may be disruptive to them, or I mean, I’ve always thought my job as a professor was to make your life a little bit messier to see that there’s more gray than you’re giving it. And so that you can reflect on that when you get out into the world that maybe not everybody sees everything through your worldview. And we have to f facilitate how to help students learn in the society and then the workforce they’re gonna head into.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well said. Bryon, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Bryon Grigsby:

Oh, thank you. I’ve greatly enjoyed it.

Joe Gottlieb:

And thanks to our guests for joining us as well. Have a great day and we’ll look forward to hosting you again on the next episode of TRANSFORMED.

Yo, stop the music. Hey, listeners have transformed. I hope you enjoyed that episode and whether you did or not, I hope that it made you stop and think about the role that you are playing in your organization’s ability to change in the digital era. And if it made you stop and think, perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts, suggestions, alternative perspectives, or even criticisms related to this or any other episode, I would love to hear from you. So send me an email at Info@Higher.Digital or Joe@Higher.Digital. And if you have friends or colleagues you think might enjoy it, please share our podcast with them as you and they can easily find TRANSFORMED is available wherever you get your podcasts.