Joe Gottlieb:

Welcome to TRANSFORMED a higher digital podcast focused on the new why’s, the new what’s, and the new how’s in higher ed. In each episode, you’ll experience hosts and guests pulling for the resurgence of higher ed, while identifying and discussing the best practices needed to accomplish that resurgence. Culture, strategy and tactics, planning and execution, people, process, and technology. It’s all on the menu because that’s what’s required to truly transform. Hello, welcome and thanks for joining us for another episode of Transformed. My name is Joe Gottlieb, president and CTO of Higher Digital, and today I’m joined by Fred Rocha, recently retired CIO of Coast Community College District, right here in my great state of California, and now an active member of our consulting team at Higher Digital. Fred, welcome to TRANSFORMED.

Fred Rocha:

Thank you, Joe. Happy to be here. What would you like to talk about today?

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, I’m really glad you asked. I want to get into the topic of the CIO as not so accidental therapist, but first, tell me a bit about your personal journey and how it’s led you to do the work that you’ve been doing in higher ed.

Fred Rocha:

Well, that’s, it’s a strange and amazing journey. When I take a look back at it I have just about a total of 40 years in education, 38 of which was spent with the California Community Colleges in, in a lot of different roles and, and served in a lot of different capacities within those years. My first my first love and first position I think has always been that as the role of instructor and professor I had the opportunity to serve as a, a, a tenured professor for a number of years before, as my league said I started practicing the, the dark arts of management and moved off from the instructional side of the house to the leadership side of the house. And, and that journey was one that really allowed me, I think, to, to share a perspective and a voice that is sometimes missing in those leadership discussions and decision making conversations. And that was the focus on the classroom and the focus on the needs of students. So I welcomed the opportunity to, to join that side of the of the house and really try to bring that fresh perspective to it.

Joe Gottlieb:

Awesome. Well then you, having practiced already then, at least two sides, if we can call them, sides of the many dialogues that exist in the business of higher ed, delivering education, value teaching, and learning to students while thinking about how a business needs to stay organized to fulfill that mission. It’s a great vantage from which to get into this fun topic, this topic of the CIO as not so accidental therapist. So let’s start out, what do we mean when we talk about an IT therapist? What is an IT therapist anyway?

Fred Rocha:

Well, you know, it, it, it’s a, a title that I think we a group of colleagues and I came up with after a, a few libations and, and really trying to to understand what we saw our role evolving into. And, and the idea of therapy to me ties closely to the classroom experience. What is very unique about being an instructor or being a professor is that if you engage with your students you generally learn about some of the challenges and the difficulties they may have in achieving their educational goals. And it becomes much more than just imparting content or just being that subject matter expert for them and, and trying to help them acquire that, that knowledge or that skillset. And instead, you find yourself, at least, I think that the most successful teachers will find themselves engaging with their students to understand how best to approach and satisfy those needs.

Fred Rocha:

Because every single class is different because all the individuals in that class are different, the way they interact sort of the challenges they bring with them to the classroom, as well as things like learning style and, and just general preferences or makeup of personality. ’cause Some are introverts, some are extroverts, and the way in which they get along and have that dialogue within a course is going to have a tremendous impact in terms of their ability to really understand that content, to really engage with their with their fellow students and to be successful in the outcomes that they’re trying to achieve. So what we found is that so many of those same skills that you know, I worked to practice in the classroom are what were going to be needed as a CIO. The people you were working with were different, you know, it was generally a much broader spectrum.

Fred Rocha:

It wasn’t simply you know, just the interaction with students, but it was certainly with instructors with deans, with managers and with senior leadership. And then, you know, in many cases, the ultimate decision make makers in that district the board of trustees that you worked with. So all of those groups still have one thing in common that’s the desperate need to be heard, that desperate need to be understood, and the desperate need to really be able to have somebody who they feel gets it, that that is there for them in order for them to be able to convey all the goals, all the desires, and all the outcomes they want.

Joe Gottlieb:

I love the way that you’ve just made that so universal, because it’s true, right? This need to be heard is so universal. And just listening to you talk about it, Fred, I, it reminds me of what experiences I’ve had with similar circumstances. I’ve never been an instructor, but I’ve been a youth sports coach. And when you, you know, when you coach youth sports, you can be all about dictating what’s in your mind and in your vision. But if you don’t understand each of your, your, your team’s individual needs and what they’re experiencing as their learning process, how they assem information, how they work together as a team, et cetera, you’ll, you’ll miss that opportunity to have some real success or, or the universality of this as being a parent. Even a consultant, right? If you’re a good consultant, really understands the unique circumstances of their customers and can relate to those and, and have a feel for even what they might have to offer, how it fits within that construct. So very universal. I agree. Interesting. Okay. So you’ve seen, you’ve seen this play out in higher ed through a diverse array of lenses from the, from your tenured professor role to a very important discipline in being the chief information security officer. That’s a whole role. And then of course, being a chief Information Officer. So how did you, how did these various perspectives help you to help others facing challenges related to technology? And, and, and how does that universal theme come true?

Fred Rocha:

Well, it, the, the part that I think is remains a constant, if you will goes back to the lens that I had and the role that I had as an instructor. And there’s there’s a technique that was, I, I, and I think is vital again, to, to not just the instruction side of the house, but to any of those roles that I’ve held. You know, whether you are any form of leadership, whether it’s the information security officer, whether it’s the information officer, whether it’s a chief technical officer, it doesn’t matter. But that skill and, and that practice and that technique is the checking for understanding. You know, one of the things that I found is that we don’t often truly verify that our interpretation of what we just heard is what that individual meant. And, you know, that was the the important lesson I learned early on in teaching.

Fred Rocha:

It was one thing if I said, you know made a statement and said, here’s how you perform this task. Say, I was teaching software, and I would give them a step by step on how to do something, say in Excel. That’s one thing to do that. But then to take that step back, ask the student to perhaps demonstrate that, or to put in their own words what they heard me say, and did any of that not make sense to them? Did they understand it or interpret what I said in a different way? And it’s that ongoing dialogue that you develop around that knowledge acquisition, both for the student as well as for the instructor, because what, at the end of the day, that made me better and able to refine the way in which I presented content, the way in which I would have that dialogue with my students to ensure that I didn’t say at one time, believe that they all simply got it, and then moved on to some other point.

Fred Rocha:

It would be very, very important for me to make sure that in essence, I was moving that class along as a whole, because we know what happens, right? If you get left out of that understanding and you develop a gap between those that understand and those that don’t, number one, you’re gonna end up going and doing a lot of repair work, you know, ’cause you’re gonna revisit that topic again. And even worse case scenario, someone goes off on a path that is not productive, that is actually wasting their time, wasting their, you know, wasting any of the valuable resources that they have. And they get confused, they get frustrated and the thing you never want to see as an instructor, they end up walking away and just throw their hands up and believe that they can’t accomplish what it is that they’re trying to do.

Fred Rocha:

So just taking those very basic steps of, of really verifying that what you heard, and maybe even the way they phrased the question to you I would often repeat back, let me share the way I interpret that question, or Let me, let me share back how I heard that. Is that accurate? Is that what you’re asking me to you know, to demonstrate or, or to review? And then you would find that you would sometimes, no, that really wasn’t what they were asking about. They were, they were confused, and they just didn’t have the vocabulary to actually explain what it is they were they were working with.

Joe Gottlieb:

Didn’t you, didn’t you also find, and I’m wondering now if it led to an investment you would have to make when practicing this technique, didn’t you also find that your familiarity with something being so high, and theirs perhaps being so relatively low because they’re learning something new from an instructor in this case, oftentimes they’re in the process of trying to organize this information in their minds. So they’re trying to make connections, they’re trying to see how things fit together. And when they play it back to you, you probably have often heard them relate something to something else that’s also relevant. But, but the, the association they’re making is perhaps a bit faulty, and you wanna help them correct that, or at least restate it in a way that will help them distinguish the, the observation they made from the one that you had offered up. But that’s a, that’s now a conversation, and that takes time and energy. And isn’t it true that if we’re in a rush, we want to get through this? And so we aren’t always exploring those avenues. We aren’t always indulging those avenues, helping someone to get their organizing system, right. Did you find that, and how did you, how did you stay the investment or manage that investment?

Fred Rocha:

Those are, those are all great points. And, and those are all points of discussion that take place in a faculty lounge, if you will. You know, the, the, the idea certainly is that and I think for most of us, this is the way we approached it. You know, we, we prepared a great deal of content, let’s say twice as much content than we thought we would need for that particular course in case everybody clicked and you got it, and you could keep moving on. But most of the time, exactly what you said, it’s, it is an investment. And what I love to hear is when a student would use an analogy, you know, what you were just alluding to there, where they will be able to say, well, isn’t that like with a car where you have to have the key and it has to be the right key, and you have to turn the ign.

Fred Rocha:

You know, those sort of stories that they would bring would also help you see how they formed their connection in their head and what they related to. And I found that if I had some similar knowledge in this other area, and if I could put it into car terminology, or if I could put it into, you know, anything, photography, you name it, whatever that other discipline was, that would help. So, you know, hence the, the reason I think I love cooking, photography, art, travel, I mean, you develop these, these, all these interests because you develop all these sense of analogies that you wanna bring to the, to the table when you’re helping people learn.

Joe Gottlieb:

So you’ve been drug through a lot of other fields and become a, a quick and dirty expert, I imagine.

Fred Rocha:

Absolutely. And I think that’s, that’s the you know, the important part, it also opens up that exploration window for you as an individual, so that you continue to learn and you foster that growth mindset where you, you want to be able to acquire new pieces of knowledge and information and experiences because you see that’s gonna make you a, a, a better person, yes, but better able to serve those in that capacity that you have within within your role.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, it sounds to me like the one practice that you employed, i e asking your students, or in this case, your, your discussion partner, whatever it is that, that the situation might require to play back what you said that’s, that’s a, that sets you up for an ability to test whether you’ve been clear in what you’ve articulated and that has been received in the way you had hoped. But on the flip side, it sounds to me like there is also an implication here where listening feels like a really fundamental critical skill for IT leadership. And, and I wanna now dive into that. So let’s talk a little bit about the importance of listening, and do you find that that <laugh> that skill tends to allude people?

Fred Rocha:

I think it certainly does allude many. And and that’s not to say that there aren’t times that I’m challenged with that. I think there are active conversations when you want to dive in, right? And you simply want to share that thought that’s in your head. But again, sort of a skill and a practice. And what I’d like to say, I, i is really just almost my superpower is to be able to be engaged in listening. And I practiced if I, if I tried to measure my engagement in conversations, especially during those initial phases, I practiced the, the 90 10% rule. I try to speak no more than 10% of the time, and I try to listen 90% of the time, because I found that most of the time when I was being brought into a meeting or into a group or into a team there was already a lot of people who had opinions, who had ideas.

Fred Rocha:

And rather than simply start by jumping in and throwing in my ideas or my suggestions, I really wanted to hear what, what the others were thinking. And I think part of that is because I found that if I was going to be of service, I needed to actually understand where and what I was going to serve. And to be able to take that approach really allowed me to ask what I would hope would be the important questions at, at various points in that discussion. And they would often be framed with trying to restate what I heard others say, especially if I thought there was some contention or there was some discussion point that just really seemed to be critical. I wanted to make sure that, number one, I heard it correctly and I interpreted correctly. But I, I felt that by verbalizing that to the group, I would help draw out any clarifications or give somebody else the opportunity to say, well, that’s not what I took from it, or, that’s not what I understood you to say.

Fred Rocha:

And really get people to begin to engage into totality, into that listening process. I, I think that that point of active listening is, is so challenging because we live in an age where we’re just bombarded with information and you are constantly having to decide what you pay attention to what you act upon, and in some cases, how you join in on that discussion, how you get your voice heard. And what I really found is that in, in my leadership roles, it wasn’t as nearly important for, for me to say a position as much as it was for me to understand what were all the positions of the people who were there. And I think that’s, it gets to that also that therapist role. You know, I think of when, you know, ha having been on that other side of the couch as well, you know, you want that pa that patient, if you will, to be able to express concerns, thoughts, fears, desires, so that you can actually help them understand what, what it is that they’re bringing to the table, and more importantly, how they can find the solution that’s gonna be meaningful for them.

Joe Gottlieb:

So, okay, so we’ve got, the 90 10 rule is very handy. It works in a lot of circumstances. I’m gonna challenge it in a moment, but I wanna first capture something else before we move to that. And that is, wow, the concept of not just a point to point active listening transaction, but really thinking about how can I get all the perspectives in this room when I have multiple stakeholders in a meeting, let’s say, or as part of a proceeding that’s important. How do I kind of facilitate, tease out the different perspectives and arrive at some other, other pairwise alignments or, or improve understandings, different pairs in that group, but therefore also a collective shared understanding that I’m now facilitating that’s next level. I think that becomes, I mean, any facilitator, that’s the job, right? To when they facilitate mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, this, this group, it’s not that you’re, you’re striving for a hundred percent group agreement.

Joe Gottlieb:

You’re trying to strive for a level of alignment where they under have a shared understanding and improved understanding of what’s going on, and therefore a, a platform for compromise, which is typically necessary in virtually any circumstance, right? When you have different views. So that feels like a really, really, you know, advanced form of this taking the, the binary transaction of, or communicating testing for comprehension, but then also active listening, and then pushing it out to this broad matrix view. It brings me then to this, this notion of when you now need to be the expert and people are looking to you to be that expert, to fulfill the role that you’ve been assigned to, I bet you you practice that 90 10 rule still there too, by offering up something and then soliciting stimulating reactions and asking more questions even about that. Am I, am I going on a limb there? Is that true?

Fred Rocha:

No, that, that, that’s very true. And I, I think the, the skillset follows there, because again, if you are working with teams, which is what I, I certainly found, I was always working with, you know, you were part of a collective team that was tasked with challenging. Sometimes it’s called a committee, sometimes it’s called a council, you know, whatever label you want to give it. But ultimately it’s a team of individuals, usually SMEEs, who have that knowledge that needs to be brought to bear in order to address this, whatever that this is in that particular case. So, a a again, it’s the same idea. If you put in the, what I would call the, you know, the head facilitator role, yes, you’re definitely still stating, you know, perhaps restating what the, the goal and the outcome that’s being looked for, and perhaps laying out some things that you believe can address this.

Fred Rocha:

You know, that’s sort of that more refined approach to this. But again, it’s to leave that opportunity for all those team members to weigh in and to share their expertise, because you need to honor their expertise. And the reason why they’re on that team, you want their input. They’re the people that are going to make this a positive outcome. And if you really focus on allowing them to bring their strengths and their talents and their abilities to bear, you’re gonna come up with a much better solution, something that will have consensus for that team, and something that is more likely to succeed. I can’t say it enough that being able to do this moves from what I call the transactional relationship that most of us have. And instead, it’s a relationship that you’re actually building. You want this to be an area in which you are building trust with these individuals.

Fred Rocha:

It isn’t just, you know, quid pro quo. You do this for me, I’ll do this for you. And, you know, and instead, it’s really the idea that I want them to understand that if they’re coming to me and they need my help, I’m gonna be there it, and I’m going to listen, and I’m going to offer up something that is going to be hopefully of value and certainly something that I’ll be able to deliver upon and will address that need. I, I think that’s the, the really important part of higher education is that we’re not often individuals who are simply there for a one and done situation. We’re there in order to really help that institution or to help that college, to help that district, whatever the case might be, we’re really there to solve huge issues that need to be addressed and do it in a meaningful way so that people see us not just as you know, someone who’s there to, to collect a paycheck or someone who’s there to provide something and then walk away from it. We want ownership of what it is we’re doing.

Joe Gottlieb:

I love the way that we’ve now sort of really extended and tested and validated this notion that active listening on facilitating conversation on different perspectives around a topic, even when we’re in a point of, of subject matter expertise that we’re bringing to the table. And there, so this is our meeting. We’re we’re trying to drive, let’s say even an agenda, but for the agenda to be useful, as you’ve pointed out it, it requires understanding. It requires the, the reaction of those with perspectives about how they see that working. It requires buy-in and adoption, and then and then a collective alignment around getting it done, right? And so all those things involve those individuals talking rather than the subject matter expert talking. And, and it reminds me that this is also the way to unlock diversity in teams, right? If you truly want diverse perspectives, you have to put forth the energy a, to add them to your teams and not be afraid of what that might involve in terms of things, people thinking differently so that you can harness the rich possibility of diverse perspectives on any topic. And this is true of types of thinking. It, it’s, it’s true of race, it’s true of background, it’s true of any number of diversity sources, right? Great power in that. But you gotta be willing to open yourself to the diversity, harness the perspective, and put in that, put in that effort, right?

Fred Rocha:

Absolutely. And, and you know, that that point that that you make there, I think is no small point. That it takes effort, it takes desire, and it really takes dedication to understanding that the best solutions address the largest totality of need. And the only way you’re going to understand the totality of need is to have that diverse perspective being brought to the table from the get go. If you think of how many projects or how many efforts fail or fail to hit their, their, their biggest goal, it’s because they short circuited that process. They didn’t stop to really ask themselves, how was this population? Or how was this perspective? Or how was this need that exists going to be addressed? And if we make that investment upfront, we have much better solutions that are developed.

Joe Gottlieb:

All right. Let’s see. What is your favorite, I’ve got a fun one for you now. What’s your favorite role hack that you prescribe to your IT therapy patients, i e now these are people that you’re, are helping to, to adopt these practices and to put them into use to achieve more results as a diverse organization that is, that is collectively aligned. What’s your favorite role hack you offer up to these folks?

Fred Rocha:

Well, and, and I’m glad you you phrased it that way because what’s interesting to me is more and more of the conversations I have are with leadership team members. Many of them, certainly CIO level individuals, but some of them are from other disciplines as well. And, and in that capacity you know, I’m sort of famous or infamous depending on how you look at it for my coffee devices. So I, I would always tell those individuals never underestimate the power of a good cup of coffee or also to be diverse, a good cup of tea. And, and I will say I’m not the best tea maker. That’s actually my wife’s superpower. I try to to, to glom onto that and, and pick up some of those skills. But the reason why the coffee or tea that beverages is, is a hack is something that I learned a long time ago.

Fred Rocha:

Certainly coffee is the, the blood of it, right? It, you know, it, it is what flows through the veins of many in the profession. And what I found is that I one love coffee. So I would always have a couple of different coffee making devices in my office. So I would have the espresso sort of that pod machine for those who simply want a cup of coffee. But I also had an espresso machine because I happen to love espresso and Americanos and, you know, an occasional cappuccino or, or, or latte. So what I would do is I, I invested in having those devices in my office and let it be known to anybody in my college or in my district, Hey, if you need a good cup of coffee I’m your person. Come on by my office. And, you know, I’ll make you the best cup of coffee you’ve ever had.

Fred Rocha:

And what I found is that I got this reputation, Hey, Fred makes really good coffee, number one. Number two, he doesn’t charge for it. And, and, and number three I get to go have, you know, some time to unwind. So what was really fascinating is I watched that people began to come not just for the cup of coffee, but to take five, 10 minutes and sit down and just kind of unload and be able to say, you know, God, I gotta catch my breath for a moment. I’m in between meetings. I, I’m really feeling drained by this. I, this has been such a struggle. And it would give me that 10 minute therapy session with them just to let them explain to me, and then perhaps give them a nugget they could take away from. And in some cases simply say, Hey, well, why don’t you bring, you know, so and so buy for coffee.

Fred Rocha:

Let’s sit down the three of us. Why don’t we have a, a little bit of a dialogue? And it would be almost that you know, omni Budsman liaison, that role that would kick in for some of that and, and help do that. And what I found was that I really developed this reputation as being the, the Starbucks for many of the districts that I served. And people would look to come to my office, not because they had to come see me about a problem, not because they wanted to complain, or not even because they wanted to say thank you for something. They just wanted a cup of coffee. They wanted a moment of sanctuary, they wanted a moment of release, and that was just because I made really good coffee and it was a coffee break that they truly needed. I think it’s a, it’s a wonderful skill to have, and you can do it with anything. It doesn’t have to be coffee. But it, it can certainly be what, what is near and dear to you. Unfortunately, alcohol’s not permitted on on many college campuses, so you can’t be a sommelier. You can’t be you know, the mixologist, that would be a whole different school that you’d have to operate that on. But coffee, that’s my, that’s my my hack for, for most people that I offer up.

Joe Gottlieb:

Awesome. Love that hack. It’s a useful one. And I agree. I think the key there is to not be intimidated by the, the level of art you took it to, but to capture the essence of creating that safe haven, creating that, that, that device that allows you to have more calm, basic, casual conversation. The water cooler is a great, you know, longtime historical reference about, you know, people go to the wa you know, they, you get some water, you, you’re hanging around, you got, you’re there for a reason, but you’ve, you’ve taken a moment of pause, right? And in that moment of pause, you have, humans can’t help themselves but have exchanges. And that one thing leads to another. Before you know it, you got water cooler talk, which is probably not too far from what you’re talking about there. All right.

Fred Rocha:

Absolutely.

Joe Gottlieb:

Let’s bring this puppy to a close. In summary, what are three takeaways we should offer our listeners as they think about how to leverage this notion of, of the IT therapists and, and how they’re leveraging that approach?

Fred Rocha:

Well, I, I think there’s probably three key takeaways that I would want any of the listeners to have. First and foremost is the idea of sharpen your active listening skills. You need to be able to really hear what people are saying. You need to really be able to focus on them and put yourself in, in the backseat and let them drive those conversations and let them really feel that they’ve been heard and that they’ve been understood. The second big big takeaway is something I think we struggle with as individuals. But it’s so critical. And that’s to give more credit than you take. It can’t be about me, me, me. It needs to be about what people have done in service to one another. And I find it so energizing to be able to share the great achievements that others have made.

Fred Rocha:

And when you recognize that, you give others the opportunity to see that you value what the work they’ve done, what they bring to the table, and most importantly, that they get the recognition, especially for those that that may toil in, in ways in which there’s not often a spotlight that is placed upon them. So take every opportunity you can to give credit. Probably last and most importantly, is you, is really understand that you are only as successful as your team. And to think about how you are of service to that team, see yourself as constantly being present for them, and that when you are taking on a role within that team, that you serve it to the very highest capacity you have because you’re there for a reason and you want that team to be successful and that that team successful. You are successful in your role, and you will find that you will walk away at the end of the day feeling satisfied and realizing that you had the opportunity to make a difference.

Joe Gottlieb:

Great summary. Fred, thank you so much for joining me today.

Fred Rocha:

My pleasure, Joe. Absolute wonderful time today. Thank you for having me on,

Joe Gottlieb:

And thanks to our guests for joining us as well. I hope you have a great day, and we’ll look forward to hosting you again on the next episode of TRANSFORMED.