Josh Wilson:

It really is this notion of leadership as behaviors that you choose every single day, every single hour of every single day. It’s not rocket science, it’s not unique qualities. I don’t really go in for the idea of observing the characteristics of famous leaders. I think that’s crazy. You know, I think leadership is really making those everyday choices to empower the really smart people around you, and you do it by promoting psychological safety in your organization. Whether that’s an organization you lead or just the group around you. Psychologically safe organizations are the ones that are the most innovative, the most on the edge. But you, you do that by being soft on the people and hard on the issues. And you do it by letting people know that they can take risks in the interest of innovation without consequences coming down on their heads. Psychological safety also allows a lot of openness and transparency.

Josh Wilson:

So my go-to is always regularly sharing what I’m trying to achieve as a leader, what each initiative is trying to accomplish. You know, why are we here? Why are we doing what we’re doing? Who are we serving? What are we trying to accomplish? And how do we do our best to pursue this fluid mission of the organization? You know, the organization’s leaders are, are fluid that’s in transition. So the mission is, you know, the, the top level mission isn’t fluid, but the way it’s executed is, so how do we give ourselves the benefit of the most information so that we can all make great decisions on our feet?

Joe Gottlieb:

That’s Josh Wilson, an active consultant to numerous higher education institutions who, when he isn’t busy helping Higher Digital customers is also hard at work, as a leadership development coach and open source project governor. Josh and I spoke about his leadership philosophy, how it has helped him to activate high performance teams, and how it fits with the challenges and opportunities in higher ed today. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Joe Gottlieb:

Welcome to TRANSFORMED, a Higher Digital podcast focused on the new why’s, the new what’s and the new how’s in higher ed. In each episode, you will experience hosts and guests pulling for the resurgence of higher ed, while identifying and discussing the best practices needed to accomplish that resurgence. Culture, strategy and tactics, planning and execution, people, process and technology. It’s all on the menu because that’s what’s required to truly transform. Hello, welcome and thanks for joining us for another episode of TRANSFORMED. My name is Joe Gottlieb, President and CTO of Higher Digital, and today I’m joined by Josh Wilson, a senior engagement manager in Higher Digital’s consulting organization. Josh, welcome to TRANSFORMED.

Josh Wilson:

Thanks, Joe, I’m super glad to be here. So what are we talking about today, Joe?

Joe Gottlieb:

I’m glad you asked. I thought we could talk about transformation via active open leadership, but first I’d like you to share a bit of background on your personal journey. We know we’re lucky to have you as part of our consulting team, but I know you have your own platforms for some great initiatives that I think our guests will find interesting.

Josh Wilson:

Sure. Well, I spent 20 years in various leadership roles in higher education most recently leading IT client services writ large as associate CIO at Brandeis University in Massachusetts. I then shifted in 2017 to commercial ed tech and I landed at a firm that hosts still does an open source learning management system. So I ended up with one foot firmly planted in the open source world and one foot firmly planted in commercial ed tech, which is a very interesting place to be. So it has led me to this place where I’m still active in the open source world. So with the, the stuff that I do with higher digital, the stuff that I do with my other clients, it continues to draw upon this knowledge of how things get done in the open source world and how leadership happens in the open source world. I’ve also served 10 years on boards of nonprofit organizations of various kinds, and along the way I’ve always been fascinated with the day-to-day aspects of leadership. So what, what choices I might need to make today to empower the really smart people around me. And in recent years I’ve launched a consultancy that focuses on that in particular. So we, we, we do a lot of courses and coaching around the idea of leadership as action.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, we’re lucky to have you. And I know that those skills and the way organizations adopt them is just really, really material and pertinent to the work that we do, helping higher education institutions change and transform for their digital era. So I’m just excited to have this conversation. So let’s start out really setting the stage. You know, your work in leadership development, as I understand it, has really helped you to develop what, what I’d have to call a leadership philosophy. So how would you describe that leadership philosophy?

Josh Wilson:

Well, I mentioned a minute ago that I think of leadership as action and my my colleagues in my leadership consultancy like to say leads is an action verb, but it really is this notion of leadership as behaviors that you choose every single day, every single hour of every single day. It’s not rocket science, it’s not unique qualities. I don’t really go in for the idea of observing the characteristics of famous leaders. I think that’s crazy. You know, I think leadership is really making those everyday choices to empower the really smart people around you, and you do it by promoting psychological safety in your organization, whether that’s an organization you lead or just the group around you. Psychological safety is this cool concept that comes out of Harvard. A Harvard Business School researcher by the name of Amy Edmondson has been writing about it for a long time, and it’s this idea of a candor driven organization.

Josh Wilson:

They are more effective because they are more candid with, with one another. And even more than that, abandoning candor feels gross. If they don’t have candor, they feel yucky in their organization and they’re just not as good. So this is not the same as being safe and comfortable in your workplace. Matter of fact, psychologically safe organizations are the ones that are the most innovative, the most on the edge. But you, you do that by being soft on the people and hard on the issues, and you do it by letting people know that they can take risks in the interest of innovation without consequences coming down on their head. So I, I love to think about leadership actions being in this vein. Psychological safety also allows a lot of openness and transparency. So my go-to is always regularly sharing what I’m trying to achieve as a leader, what each initiative is trying to accomplish.

Josh Wilson:

You know, why are we here? And you know, and sometimes I know the people that I work with and the people that I, that work for me and probably the work people I work for as well, get a little bored of me saying, you know, the reason why we’re here is this. I have heard so and so say that really the priority here is this. But it, it helps to bring things to a point and it helps to at least put my cards on the table. And with any luck, it helps to get a group of us openly on the same page. I used to do this a lot when I was leading my team at Brandeis in 20 16, 20 17, before I left, there was a huge pile of leadership change. There was CIO leadership change. There was presidential leadership change. It was it was, it was a rough and tumble atmosphere.

Josh Wilson:

And so what I ended up doing was convening my staff on a regular basis. Our staff meetings became what I like to call intel sharing sessions. So I would bring Intel that I had learned, they would bring Intel that they had learned and think about these folks who are support staff in the various technology trenches across the university. So they talked to all sorts of people, they see all sorts of things, they hear all sorts of things. So it was really this incredible situation where everyone was bringing stuff that was really relevant and no one else had heard. And we all got to think together about, all right, why are we doing what we’re doing? Who are we serving? What are we trying to accomplish? And how do we do our best to pursue this fluid mission of the organization? You know, the organization’s leaders are, are fluid that’s in transition. So the mission is, you know, the, the top level mission isn’t fluid, but the way it’s executed is, so how do we give ourselves the benefit of the most information so that we can all make great decisions on our feet, you know, me, all my folks in the, in the field, you know? So that is when, when I think about openness and transparency in the leadership realm, I keep coming back to that kind of a situation that was in some ways the, the best that I’ve been able to do it over the years.

Joe Gottlieb:

It’s interesting how circumstances can produce your best moments. And even though you might have still learned a lot since then, the circumstances haven’t maybe presented themselves in such a way that really absorbs or really allows the rhythm to be accomplished. Like you experienced it perhaps at Brandeis. Does that, does that track with your experience?

Josh Wilson:

Yeah, I mean, I’ve done other things since, you know, where there has been, you know, risk to the folks in my organization. I mentioned I used to work at a firm that hosts an open source learning management system, and that learning management system is Sakai, which has very publicly been losing adopters. So the folks in our team, the folks in the open source community were nervous and scared, you know, so I think situations like this, you know, you have to be really intentional about your everyday decision making and really thoughtful about how you’re empowering these people especially in a moment when they’re scared. And let’s face it, you’re scared. I was scared. My my job was not entirely safe, you know, either of those situations. So you, you do, you do rise to the occasion, and if you can play your cards right and be thoughtful and really clue into what you’re doing, you have an opportunity to actually make a bigger difference. Make a bigger impact.

Joe Gottlieb:

Yeah. I wanna pick on a couple things that you said as you described that leadership philosophy, which I really, really like. One of them is you talked about how not to equate psychological safety with a lack of discernment or even analysis or critique criticism, right? And I, I think that’s a really important subtlety to get, right. So did you find that just helping participants in this, in this ecosystem of, of people just helping them to isolate personal discussions? So personal descriptions, you know, keeping letting things get personal versus issues based. Like, like it’s almost like if you adopt a mechanism, a just a really, if you observe a protocol of how you talk about issues and, and really avoid that third rail of making it personal, things can be unlocked even for people that are not normally feeling safe. Did you, have you found that?

Josh Wilson:

Yeah. Well, you know, in that case, they watched me treat what was coming in, like data, you know, so it was a data set that we gathered and we were pretty focused on what we observed and what the findings were from what we observed. And I would interpret their findings. I would their, their observations in real time. They would say, you know, I was in the office of the president and I saw this and this and this, and say, well, okay, based upon what I’ve seen over here and what I’ve heard over there, my interpretation of that is, is this, what do you know, what, what do you think about that? Did that, does that track with what you were seeing does then does, does this track with what anyone else is hearing or seeing? So it became very much an analysis exercise, not all that much about how people were feeling in terms of their beaten downness, although there was certainly space for that. But we were trying to set a strategic direction as a group in an open kind of way. So it, it, you know, we approached it in very much that way. And I think that, you know, higher digital does similar kinds of things, which I think we’ll talk about a little bit later on in terms of using data that we gather to help set out an intentional path for leadership in moments of change.

Joe Gottlieb:

Indeed, I, we will get into that, but I wanna make an observation that this, the, the story or the, the reference you just made very helpfully, I think described a situation where there wasn’t hard data. You were listening to people and you were, you were, you were isolating facts from things people were communicating to describe a situation that might have been happening. And I think that’s just a really good tool to unlock right where you can, you can, you can view these things that are easily misinterpreted via fears and emotions and organizational complexity, and do your best to isolate what can be observed as fact and, and really maybe give people the benefit of the doubt and just model that behavior so that more people can adopt that skill.

Josh Wilson:

Well, yeah, it’s interesting. Before we turn on the recording, you were talking to me about leadership hacks, and this is certainly one of them, right? I mean, it’s this idea that, you know, I, and I needed to model it, you know, so I needed to be very curious all the time. So when someone said, Hey, I have this idea, even if I’m thinking in my head, this is a bunch of hooey, you know, my, my response has to be because I could be missing something. It has to be, okay, interesting. Tell me more. And sometimes I was right, it was a bunch of hooey. And sometimes I was not right at all because they were onto something that I had not even perceived, you know? So I think that this notion of being curious when you do it, people take that to heart, and then when you say something, they’re like, huh, okay, I, you know, tell me more.

Josh Wilson:

And they, they feel safe enough because they’re being listened to to ask that question back. And it really changes the nature of the conversation, and it makes it much more about collective decision making. I mean, a lot of people use the term collective decision making, right? But we were, we were working to get ourselves using the best information we could have at our fingertips onto the same page. And, you know, 80% of the time it worked. The other 20%, maybe it was more of a struggle. I can’t say it worked amazingly, you know, a hundred percent of the time nothing ever does. But you know, when you, when people see that what you’re after is hearing what they bring to the table and what information they’re gathering, and that I’m as interested in their observations, maybe as I’m in my own, maybe even more so because they’ve seen stuff I haven’t heard or seen that that matters. And they, they, they adopt that for themselves with me and adopt it for themselves with others.

Joe Gottlieb:

Yeah. So now that we’re onto these hacks, right? You, you, you mentioned you’ve got a couple of these that we wanted to get into next. So let’s just go there. You know, it actually connects to one of the things I was mentioning before that I wanted to dive into, which is people, you said people sometimes might have gotten tired about you asking the question, you know, why are we here? What are we doing? And I too have found that one of the reasons that people often feel disconnected from the mission, from the strategy, how does my work fit into the overall plan, is because that planning, that communication is so episodic, and it’s, it’s often at a frequency that’s very low. Let’s say it’s annually or worse sometimes, right? And so everyone gets this feel good injection of, of a, an attempt at alignment, but not frequently enough. And what I’ve found is that you have to err on the side of repetition to the point where it’s almost annoying to keep that active enough for people to stay connected because the people that are responsible for such things are, are closer to it, and they lose sight of the fact that people aren’t hearing this often enough. Did you find, I mean, is that, does that factor into the hack that you talk about in terms of alignment with mission?

Josh Wilson:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I would use the term reinforcement instead of repetition. I like it. You know, obviously those are two different ways of looking at saying the same thing over and over again until people wanna beat you about the head and shoulders. But <laugh>, you know, it’s you know, what you’re trying for is not saying the thing again because you think it ought to be said, but reinforcing the idea that we should all be getting behind, or that if we’re not all getting behind, then we ought to be talking about it more. There’s a, there’s been an engagement in Higher Digital recently where we’ve been working on developing a a piece of learning content for a client. And one of the things that we realized in conversation with, you know, folks on my team, folks that I work for, was that what we really want to do the most here is get people talking about the sticky parts of change.

Josh Wilson:

So whenever we are talk, talking about this workshop, planning this workshop, rehearsing this workshop, a lot of times people will hear me saying, why are, why are we here? What do we really want to accomplish here? We want to get people talking about the sticky parts of change. So therefore that means that we ought to have fewer slides. We ought to say less, we ought to get them talking more. And whenever I say, let’s curate this some more, let’s slim it down by half, it’s always, you know, with me saying, be, why is this? Because they need to have the space to talk about the sticky parts of change.

Joe Gottlieb:

Yeah. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a really important thing to get right, especially when you’ve been hired as an expert in a domain. And I think one of the things that you know, on our best days we do a good job of, is that we feel, we feel secure in our role as playing that role as experts, and yet understand that the key is to facilitate organizational growth, organizational posture that is, is more suited to change. And you’re right, it’s a little bit nuanced. So,

Josh Wilson:

You know, it’s interesting that you say that I kind of view my expertise as being able to ask really great questions and connect the dots really well and get people together behind what I call a good enough plan. You wanna move the needle, you don’t want perfection, right? So I, I’m a little uncomfortable with the notion of playing the expert that a consultant is supposed to play. You know, when I think I’m going best, it’s when I’m drawing out the really great ideas of the people around me. These are super smart people. When I was in SAI land, these were developers who’d been developing on Saka for 20 years, and not in a hide bound way. These are people who had been changing technologies and changing architectures and coming up with really interesting new ways of doing things. And what they wanted was they, they needed someone to help them bring that to fruition, not someone to get in their way.

Josh Wilson:

You know, it was, it was my privilege to learn from them. So, you know, when, and, and I think when I was at Brandeis, it was that way too, right? I mean, all of my folks knew their jobs better than I knew their jobs, they knew their areas of expertise far better than I knew it. So my job was to honor what they brought to the table, ask really good questions, surface their very best stuff, and put it together into the very best package. You know, so I think that’s the, the expert role that I love to play. And, you know, I understand why people are uncomfortable with experts functioning as experts. I am too.

Joe Gottlieb:

Yeah, that’s normal. And I think, I think being a consultant adds a layer of expectation, but then also sets you up for even bigger hurdle to overcome in terms of transcending the, the way that it could get in the way of what you’re just talking about. So let’s switch gears. You know, on this podcast, I’ve enjoyed many conversations about all the changes afoot in higher ed, and since my comfort zone is optimism most of tilted toward opportunity rather than challenge. So how do you see this moment in higher ed, and how might your leadership philosophy fit with this moment in terms of organizations grappling with circumstances of today?

Josh Wilson:

So I love the idea of opportunity. I, I do think that most of my friends who are in leadership positions in higher ed see it more as a moment of challenge. You know, I look at some of my friends who are university librarians and they’ve been sharpening their pencils for five years. You know, those pencils are super sharp right now, you know, so they’re seeing it less as an opportunity and more as a thing to live through. But there is an opportunity there. And I think the opportunity is the young talent in higher ed. So I mentioned that I’ve got a leadership consultancy, and so we’re putting together a course for mid-career leaders that’s gonna be taught mostly online over a three month period in the fall for an organization called nercomp, which is a higher ed association in New England. So think, you know, new England and the Mid-Atlantic states.

Josh Wilson:

So I went to the annual conference for neuro comp with the idea of building excitement for this leadership course. And so it gave me the opportunity to meet all of these young leaders who were so energizing, they have just the right touch to be the ones who bring the future to higher ed. They’re diverse in so many ways. They have such amazing ideas. They were people I’d never met, people I used to work with, people I used to work for, where it was really cool seeing how they had grown over time and how, you know, they were really poised to take that next step. It was just amazing. I mean, they had great new ideas and because they’re mostly millennials, they had a focus also on empowering the people around them. So we, we were able to make common cause really quickly. I think that that’s the new group of leaders, that’s the up and coming group of leaders in higher ed, and there couldn’t be a better opportunity. So higher ed needs to do what it needs to do to retain those folks so that they can really make the impact that they’re primed to make in higher ed.

Joe Gottlieb:

Interesting that you mentioned millennials and, and therefore a, a generational reference. Knowing a little bit about that, I’ve, I’ve heard some experts talk about this. I don’t fancy myself to be an expert at all, but the notion of like baby boomers in particular were, they wound up being kind of fiercely independent and they wound up adopting a hierarchical system and they really felt responsible to make things happen. And subsequent generations, it seems have evolved into this more more inclusive approach that you refer to. And I think it seems to me that the leadership philosophy that you’ve been describing is well suited to that. So is is actually a, it, it, it seems that would fit well to leverage this sort of generation coming up to take on the reins with the kind of skillset, tooling, training, background, you know, guidance we like this course will or portray will provide to these, these leadership styles that that will be good for them to, to leverage.

Josh Wilson:

Yeah, I mean, they grew up with the idea that the community comes first. And I mean, I’m, I’m painting in broad strokes, right? They, you know, millennials are a large group and my son is Gen Z, which is different yet again, right? But, you know, writ large at, you know, 50,000 feet community is important to them, and empowerment is important to ’em. They wish to feel empowered in their lives, and they make lots of choices accordingly, which makes boomers and Gen Xers like myself a little crazy sometimes. But they, they, they know what they’re after, and so many of them are making good choices, and it’s kind of neat to be able to offer something, to put something into the world that is gonna help make them more effective in the way that they want to be. They’ve, they’ve got a lot to teach us, and I’m kind of hoping to help them sharpen their own spears.

Joe Gottlieb:

Well, I think it will be interesting to see how this plays out, right? You can clearly see the industry is evolving more change happening than maybe has ever happened in higher ed after it being a really a supplier’s market for a millennium ish, give or take, right? A hundred or 200 years. But there’s so many things going on, so much opportunity for, for approaching things just a bit differently, both from a value perspective, from an accessibility perspective, a inclusivity perspective even from an economic perspective, right? And I think, you know, it’s, it’ll, it’ll be interesting to watch. So, you know, without turning this into a testimonial for hire digital, you know, most of my guests are external folks, but you being someone that’s, it’s right in the middle of helping us to practice the, the art of change management and, and the science of change management with certain customers. Can you share some examples about how the right mix of leadership development, cultural awareness, and some data-driven process improvement is helping certain institutions seize their opportunity and have a little bit of fun along the way?

Josh Wilson:

Sure. I mean, there’s a, a really current example, a really current story that I can tell you about how we’re mixing insights from data with awareness of a client’s own organization to help identify a path forward for them. Really, I think we’re talking about using insights from data to empower leaders by giving them ideas of what might work better insights that they might have, might not have gotten on their own, or potentially, and this is really important when it comes to data validation of what you already know is critical. We always say, where’s the surprise for me? And surprises are amazing. We all want that aha moment, but sometimes saying, oh yeah, you know what, this, this, you know, rigorous methodology has produced a data set that lets me know that what I was doing was the right thing, and so I should continue it.

Josh Wilson:

These are, these are important things. So in this particular story, it’s an engagement with a current client. They’re a community college in the industrial Midwest, and we are helping them, strangely enough, with the change to a very major university business system. So we started the engagement as we very often do with an assessment of the institution’s change readiness, looking in particular at change culture, which we measure in terms of the feelings that support change and the behaviors that support change. So what do we find in the results? We found a ton in the results, but let me pull out one important finding that’s, that’s really relevant to this conversation, which is that they are looking at a huge opportunity, and what I wanna leave them with as we talk to them more is this idea that there is much more openness to change at their institution than maybe they would have realized.

Josh Wilson:

And that is their opportunity. So as we look at their institution as a, as a whole, they are fairly open to change, more so than you might’ve expected. Their various groups within their organization are more open to change some more, some less. And that’s actually very interesting as well. So as we look at their technology staff and their institutional leaders, they’re actually more open to change than some other groups, you know, so the leaders of this project might find these folks in these roles to be natural allies, important to cultivate. Then you might look at institutional staff in various areas in academic offices and enrollment in student areas. They’re less open to change, but they’re not closed off to change. They’re just a little bit less open. So you really have this glorious opportunity to work those relationships, strengthen the ties with the folks in those groups, and increase the likelihood that they will embrace this change and make it meaningful and impactful of their own accord. Not because someone tells ’em to, but because they, they can see why that’s empowering and useful. So all of this is a roadmap for the leaders of this project, the leaders of this institution, to go out and lead in a way that is intentional and mindful and thoughtful and empowered. And this is really one of the things that, that the data can bring you. I, I hope that we can convey this message to them. I hope they’ll seize the opportunity.

Joe Gottlieb:

Yeah, that’s a great story. Thank you for sharing it. And I think it reflects the, the overall sensibility about what we’re trying to do here, right? Like, like you said, the data can help you take something that you generally sense and really make it more real. And then if you do that and you are mindful to how people might still see it a little bit differently, or maybe not everyone is there, and that’s where this, the role group analysis that you mentioned becomes really helpful because it may just be that there’s a communication gap with one group and, and just extending what is already happening organically to that group via some extra effort can suddenly capture and activate that, what’s possible with that alignment. I find that alignment is just so key. It comes back full circle to what you started with, which is how does this connect back to mission?

Joe Gottlieb:

You know, what, why are we here? What are we trying to accomplish? That is the, it’s such a powerful method because at the end of the day, if you’re at an institution, you’re there because you’re excited about helping students prepare for whatever it is they do after their education or, or throughout their education, right? And you’re at an institution that’s got one particular approach to it, and everything else becomes a distraction potentially that one might find themselves sort of just augering into because of what they do in their job function. And so zooming out, bringing it, bringing the higher view is typically helpful. And data, data certainly helps with that,

Josh Wilson:

You know, and I, I think it also is it really helps when the communication gap is actually between your own ears. Mm-Hmm. So I can imagine, and I’ve been in situations where I was convinced that a certain group held a certain view, and then sometimes you see data that says, well, okay, I was convinced of that because they’re actually less open to change than I myself am or I myself might want them to be, but they’re more open than I thought I was. That’s what these findings indicate. So let me adjust the way that I work with them. You know, maybe an empowering track would actually work better than I thought, you know, maybe I don’t need to navigate this. Maybe it’s not a block and tackle. Maybe instead it’s, it’s, you know, an empowerment track that I want to get on with them. And that’s, that might be the aha moment that makes the whole project go that didn’t go before.

Joe Gottlieb:

That’s a great point, because what’s in our, between our ears is the, is the product of our own interpretation, our own programming, our own fears and misgivings about certain things, many of which we don’t fully understand. And that’s how looking at data together and talking about it and reflecting in a, in a safe space really unlocks a lot of, a lot of new pathways. Well thanks for sharing that story. It’s probably a good time for us to bring this to a close. So if you had to leave our listeners with three takeaways on the topic of transformation via active open leadership, what would those be?

Josh Wilson:

Well, I think I would reinforce some of the things that, that I’ve said earlier in this conversation. You know, I would, I would say definitely make your go-to real live curiosity. Actually be curious what the people around you are, are, are saying and, and bringing to you and bringing to each other. Talk about the mission, why, you know, answer the question, why are we here? And it doesn’t need to be a highfaluting answer either. It can be why are we here? We are here to get them talking about the sticky parts of change. So that is in some ways the mission for the particular part of the engagement that you’re on. So articulating that for others, articulating it for yourself, hugely powerful. And I think also this realization that what you think, you know, may not be in fact what is in the world. It’s your observation, your, as you say, interpretation and being open to changing that interpretation when new data rolls in. That’s really the mark of a, of a leader. And that’s the, that’s what openness and leadership really can look like.

Joe Gottlieb:

Great summary. Josh, thanks so much for joining me today.

Josh Wilson:

Thanks for being here. This was a lot of fun

Joe Gottlieb:

And thanks to our guests for joining us as well. Have a great day and we’ll look forward to hosting you again on the next episode of TRANSFORMED. Yo, stop the music. Hey, listeners, have transformed. I hope you enjoyed that episode and whether you did or not, hope that it made you stop and think about the role that you are playing in your organization’s ability to change in the digital era. And if it made you stop and think, perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts, suggestions, alternative perspectives, or even criticisms related to this or any other episode, I would love to hear from you. So send me an email at Info@Higher.Digital or Joe@Higher.Digital. And if you have friends or colleagues that you think might enjoy it, please share our podcast with them as you and they can easily find TRANSFORMED is available wherever you get your podcasts.