In this episode, Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy – Superintendent and President of Solano Community College – describes how a focus on capability strengths and an awareness of capacity limits can transform institutional strategy.
In this episode, Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy – Superintendent and President of Solano Community College – describes how a focus on capability strengths and an awareness of capacity limits can transform institutional strategy.
Joe Gottlieb: (00:01)
Welcome to Transformed a Higher Digital podcast focused on the new why’s, the new what’s, and the new how’s in higher ed. In each episode, you will experience hosts and guests pulling for the resurgence of higher ed, while identifying and discussing the best practices needed to accomplish that resurgence. Culture, strategy, and tactics, planning and execution, people, process, and technology. It’s all on the menu because that’s what’s required to truly transform. Hello, welcome and thanks for joining us for another presidential series episode of Transformed. My name is Joe Gottlieb, President, and CTO of Higher Digital, and today I’m joined by Dr. Celia Esposito, Noy, superintendent and President of Solano Community College, right here in my neck of the woods, the San Francisco Bay Area President, Celia Esposito, Noy, welcome to Transformed.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (00:58)
Great. Thank you, Joe. Good to be here. What are we gonna talk about today?
Joe Gottlieb: (01:04)
Well, I know I want to talk about that massive topic of transforming institutional strategy, but first, tell me a bit about your personal journey and how it’s shaped your perspective and passion for the work that you do in higher ed.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (01:17)
I’ve been really fortunate to be working in California public higher education, primarily for more than 30 years, um, here in mostly the Bay Area between Sacramento and San Francisco. Uh, much of that time has been spent in California community colleges, although I did have the chance to work at and attend some private prestigious universities, which really helped me shape the way to think differently about how we could deliver instruction and create a sense of belonging for students at the community colleges. So, um, this is my se starting my eighth year as a superintendent president at Solano College. Um, I never planned to become a president. Uh, it, the opportunity presented itself at the right time, and so I’m very pleased that, um, I was able to join this great college here of phenomenal people with outstanding students who really love being here. And so I think that makes my job a lot more enjoyable.
Joe Gottlieb: (02:16)
I imagine. That’s great. So jumping into this topic then of, of transforming institutional strategy, I thought it would be best if we first tackle a, a long standing construct. You know, what is your, what is your view on the value of long range planning? It, it, it seems to be inextricably linked to strategy, and so I thought we would start there. What’s your view on that?
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (02:40)
Well, I, I think long range planning, um, as a strategy is, is outlived its utility. I just don’t know how useful it is anymore. Um, I don’t know how one could plan something from five, 10 years ago and believe that it’ll be effective. Currently, the nature of higher education and, and the public higher education in particular is that it is a nice state of constant change, and we have to be responsive to those changes in order to meet those needs. And so, uh, the idea of a, uh, longstanding strategic plan of sorts, um, I just don’t know how effective that is or how useful that is in providing leadership on a daily basis to a complex organization.
Joe Gottlieb: (03:28)
Well, that makes sense. So then, yeah, you just, I mean, there are things that could stay the same, like your, your mission statement and very high level things, but like you said about the unique nature of how you deliver, uh, an education experience in the community college setting, right? That’s got a spec, that’s got a bunch of specifics, and then within Solano, for example. And, but then of course, then, then there’s things like covid happening, right? And so talk about an easy time to ta to talk about the arrival of new information or the arrival of new conditions. Um, yeah, it, I it’s a useful starting point to say that long-range planning has outlied its utility. I think you’re being kind
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (04:11)
Yeah. . Yeah. I, I think what happens is that certainly there are institutional visions and mission statements and values. So th those, those are actually things that we are required to create, right? How do you live that every day? How does that manifest in reality for your students, for your community, for faculty, staff and managers? That’s very different. And to me, the, the way an organization may have done that five years ago is very different than how we need to do that now. So that’s, that’s one way to to think about. Um, you know, planning strategy really for me requires, um, a sense of being present in the now and understanding what an organization needs right now in order to continue on to advance, to move forward. And so that really means that you’re not looking back at what you wrote, but you’re looking at what you currently have in the way of skills, knowledge, capacity, very important, um, uh, characteristics in order to fully understand, um, how are you gonna be moving the college forward, and how quickly are you moving the college forward? So the, there they’re the competing interests that we have to think about while still holding firm to our primary mission and our goals.
Joe Gottlieb: (05:38)
So that, that gets us right into the heart of this topic. Right? So, so just there, you’ve already articulated some shifts in the way you think about strategy, not so much about reflecting on what you wrote down sometime before, but being present with the current conditions at hand and knowing how to make choices, given the context that is gonna be unique from one institution to another for sure. Um, from one team to another. So if that’s, that to me places a really, really large importance upon, um, I use the word agility, not so much in the traditional sense of agile process per se, but, but in the generic use of the term, right? That meant that you want your organization to be agile, to, to make it strategy, able to cope with new information. If, if you, when you do that, what do you write down? How do you document this? How do you, how do you memorialize this in a form that can keep people on the same page?
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (06:48)
I, I don’t know if memorializing it is as important as strongly communicating it down to every small detail so that it can actually be implemented. And I think, um, COVID was a perfect example, um, of how there was nothing in a strategic plan about a pandemic and how we would respond. Hmm. Um, and, you know, there were times of panic, right? And, um, there were times when the management team or the college will say, well, what are we gonna do? And I said, in all honesty, I don’t know. We have to figure this out. And I think by just saying, I don’t know, we have to figure this out. Created this open opportunity for us to figure it out. And I have to say, I’m quite pleased with how we figured it out. Uh, we, we rallied folks together to, again, looking at strengths and pulled people together, said, here’s where we need your help.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (07:49)
People stepped up and said, I can do this, this, and this. Let me get started on that. We had a faculty member who did that with it, and in the first couple of days had already moved to an online format. So part of our strategy really was to be responsive, nimble, and to put out there, we don’t know how to do this, so I need everybody’s best thinking. Let’s look at options and figure this out. And that’s really what we did throughout that process. And we had pretty significant outcomes during that time where we really learned about ourselves as an organization. We had a better understanding of what students wanted and needed. Um, faculty found out that in some ways they were exceptional online teachers, and they had never thought about that before. Hmm. So it really was a great opportunity to not look at the past or what was missing from our strategy cuz we had never declared ourselves an online college. And instead be able to pivot, shift quickly, look at what our strengths were and implement things that worked for our students and our faculty and staff.
Joe Gottlieb: (09:01)
Wow. It’s, uh, it’s so interesting to hear these stories about different responses to Covid and how different teams, you know, pulled together and figured it out. Like you said, and I wanna go back to that point you made about your ability to say, I don’t know what to do here. We need to work together as a team. Talk about empowerment. Right. That, that just, I can feel, I can feel it in, in my office. Let you know what was in that room when you said that. Um, or, or on that virtual conference, whichever it was. Um, so one of the themes that I’ve seen in these responses that are I think are, have been very, very, um, frankly transformational for institutions is that, is that the organization shifted to a little bit more of like a war room process where they were, everything got turned up a few notches in terms of the iterations, the way you were exchanging updates and the new information the way you were. Then you said you threw some stuff online. So the way that you were documenting, you know, your shared sense of the reality of what it was and what you were trying to set out to do and then checking back and, and the like. So talk a a little bit more about that construct, because I think, like you said, all the way out to, we, we discovered that we were good at online teaching and we never would’ve thought of that. There were probably other gifts that you discovered along the way.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (10:32)
Well, there were, but certainly starting out it was a mess. Let’s just be honest. It was a mess, uh, communication. How do we get this information out here? We are managing, uh, communication from the county, public health from the state. Um, I’m keeping our trustees updated. Um, luckily we had folks who said, well, let’s put together a work group to manage this. Then there was the issue of, well, how quickly can a work group get communication out? So I, I’m gonna be honest and say it was a mess. It was very messy. And one of the things that that taught us though, was that we could be thoughtful and creative in the messiness. We didn’t shy away from it. We didn’t, we didn’t say, well, somebody just needs to give us a plan to do this. We, we said, okay, we’re gonna have to sit in this messiness for a while and work through this.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (11:21)
And I think that is one of those leadership traits that oftentimes we’re afraid to do. We’re afraid to admit that we don’t know what to do. We’re uncomfortable sitting in the messiness of it, and we’re untrusting that collectively we can get ourselves out of it. And I think in this case, what we proved to ourselves was input from all over. Uh, our athletic trainer was an incredible leader in this whole effort. Mm-hmm. Uh, she had been working with the statewide trainers group and they had put together, together protocols and we said, great, let’s adopt that. So we really kind of embraced the messiness and the uncertainty so that we could get our best thinking. And I think that was a real good lesson for us because we came out feeling confident about our capacity to make decisions in very uncertain and changing times.
Joe Gottlieb: (12:15)
I love that lesson. It is, it channels this authenticity benefit. Right? So, so, so the, the fact that that felt very authentic for the whole group, empowered the group to do things that probably created more trust, et cetera. But, but the, the notion of, and it’s so, it’s such, the reflex is such in the opposite direction, right? As leaders, we want to project calm and contr sense of control and expertise. Right. And the, the, the idea that a, a scenario would throw an organization into something that forced them to just confront the messiness, but then to then harness it. I, I, I lead a product organization and I, I sometimes refer to this, this concept as sort of requirements noise. And, and when I have a certain vision for the product, cuz I’m leading it and I’m not yet aligned with some key stakeholders, and I’m, I’m, and, and, and I resist sometimes that I have to resist the temptation to reconcile. Yeah. And ins and, and, and, and the way I’ve done it lately is I’ve said, no, no, no. Suppress that reflex. Like, let the noise play out because you might miss something if you don’t let that noise just play out. And there may be different harmonics that you wouldn’t have discovered. Right,
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (13:34)
Exactly. Yeah. Very much the case. And it makes room for other people and their strengths, those who have knowledge, who maybe, you know, because we haven’t had a pandemic in the past to deal with, have not been able to demonstrate where their strengths are. And so it really opened up opportunities for other folks to do things that maybe we never imagined they were even capable of doing. So it was a very positive outcome.
Joe Gottlieb: (14:01)
Hmm. That’s really interesting. So, so let’s shift gears then. If, if, if Covid accelerated your ability to create an authentic collaborative structure that was suddenly more aware of its strengths and more therefore more confident in engaging problem solving, that’s a very powerful muscle to have, uh, improved. And you had some, some form of it before, but Covid made it stronger. Let’s just say that. And then, but then meanwhile, in your world, who owns strategy? Is it, is it the, you know, is it the district, is the state, is the board of trustees? You know, what, how is strategy owned in your world? Because I think that has an important bearing on how you transform it.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (14:53)
Yeah, I think we all own strategy, right? I think there are contributions that we all make to strategy. And I’m not talking about the strategic plan as the document. I mean the carrying out of the daily mission, the commitment to students to create a sense of belonging, the commitment to each other, to validate all of the gifts that we bring to this organization. Those, for me, are part of when we talk about strategy, um, how do we harness that and maximize that, focusing on people’s strengths and interests in order to move the organization into the next positive place. Um, that isn’t always easy because that’s not always compliant. And a part of what a lot of public education is responsible for is compliance. And so finding a balance between being compliant and being strategic, uh, really is a, a daily sort of juggling of expectations and efforts and steps and strategies. Um, so that, that’s one of the why I say that strategy really belongs to all of us because there are so many different pieces of it when, when we talk about implementation and how it manifests in a way that folks say, ah, that’s what this college is about, as opposed to what’s the strategic plan.
Joe Gottlieb: (16:28)
So you mentioned, um, the, the state level considerations and the Chancellor’s office and the chancellor’s Office role in, in that. So let’s talk a little bit about that. Right? So there’s this maybe in the form of this notion of, so Solano is part of the California community college system, which has a chancellor’s office that has certain responsibilities and authority around the way that system should operate. And of course, you have, you have, um, legislative, you know, bills that come through that mandate certain things and you know, you know, often it’s the chancellor’s office that brings you those things. But, you know, let’s talk a little bit about that, that place where you have incoming, so to speak, right? You’ve got incoming directives. You, you have your operational necessities, you have your own strategic trajectory that you wanna make good on. You know, how do you balance, how do you push back, how do you deal with finite resources grappling with a laundry list of things that are sort of on the plate?
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (17:35)
Yeah. Well, y you know, as I said earlier, my introduction, I’ve been doing this for 30 plus years. So, um, I always say that a lot of the policy is like bad fashion, it’s gonna come back around again. You’re gonna have to wear it, maybe modify it a little bit bit. Um, but w we have been through this, you know, a number of times from the different, um, funding formulas Mm, different, um, categorical funded programs. Uh, the challenge for I think any organization is, is not only being responsive to those legislative requirements, also figuring out how to implement those in a way that are meaningful for your organization. So for me, and I’ve shared this with the college, it is not just about compliance. That’s not what transforms lives. Compliance does not transform lives at all. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . So how do we remain compliant in a way that is meaningful for us?
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (18:35)
Mm-hmm. Or do we push back on that compliance and say, that’s not what works for us. Uh, I’ll give you an example. Um, you know, f for, um, the past several years, a chance’s office side of focus on getting students through quickly, student success and, you know, have this whole movement about students need to take math and SCI and, and English in their first semester. Well, I don’t remember the research that said why taking math and English in your first semester made for more successful students to get through. And in fact, we found that for our students taking math and English in the first semester led to them not returning the next semester . And so we said, why then are we promoting that as the, the way to get through to complete a degree or certificate? What strategy, what course taking patterns are our first time freshmen showing where they are successful and let’s promote that.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (19:39)
Right. Okay. So part of it is, you know, understanding that compliance is a big part of public higher education, and we have to do what’s right for our students and what de what demonstration or evidence that we have works best for them and work around that. So, so that’s why for me, the, the, this sort of introduction of, you know, compliance, these different rules and regulations, they have to be balanced and managed. And I think what sometimes happens is that folks will say, okay, well now we’re doing this and now we’re shifting to this and now. And, and I think that’s a really rough road to take an organization down when the shift is constantly happening and there’s no rhyme or reason and you don’t have any personal ownership over it. Right. As an organization. So for me, that, that’s one of the challenges is balancing the compliance piece with the what works for our students and for our organization.
Joe Gottlieb: (20:41)
Interesting. You know, part of my background is in, in information security, we have a, a similar dynamic where there’s a need for compliance and, uh, compliance will keep you outta jail, but it won’t necessarily keep you more secure. Yeah. . Um, and, but, but, but the notion is how to get leverage on, okay, what is, what’s the root objective of this compliance requirement and how can we think about how it will make us more secure? So just to translate into your setting, right, I imagine some of the directives you can do that with and some you would push back. An example you gave is a great one. It’s like, Hey, I can’t get my head wrapped around this. I’m gonna supply information and feedback in the form of data perhaps, and maybe you help shape the, you know, the evolution of that one. But to me that’s an important construct, right?
Joe Gottlieb: (21:27)
To sort of understand, think about what it would mean for solano, maybe push back when you, you could be, you could be helpful in the, in the process of the, the evolution of what that thing needs to be. Um, yeah, I think that’s really useful for our listeners. So I, I like how we’ve talked about this shift in of a, a different approach to strategy. Um, can you talk a little bit about how it’s, how that has had implications on things like organizational structure, meeting structure, priority management, alignment, communications, budget management, there’s a whole laundry list of things that could be affected by what sounds to me like a better approach? Yeah.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (22:13)
Yeah. I, I think what happens is, again, we, we take a look at our capacity and our strengths. So, you know, jobs aren’t your, your job responsibilities are not completely defined by your job title. If you are good at something and like doing it, then why wouldn’t we enlist you to do that kind of work in addition? And I’ve always been leading from a strengths based approach because I think you just get a lot more outta people and folks tend to be a lot happier when they get to do at least something that they like doing and they know they do well. Mm-hmm. . So, so that’s one of those things. So for example, uh, you know, I have a vice president who comes from the film world and from, um, you know, fine arts and media. Um, why wouldn’t I have her then inform what our video and our outreach and social media looks like, whether it’s part of her job or not, right?
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (23:18)
So I think that’s one of the strengths. The other is, um, we always do the sort of, well, what else is possible? Okay. And, and we work here in an interest-based approach, really in all that we do. And we always say, okay, well that’s an option. What’s another option? And, and that way we can figure out how we can meet whether it’s legal or compliance requirements, and at the same time, better serve the organization, better serve students, uh, in a way that is meaningful and relevant for them. And so I think that is, for me, the a a real key aspect in how we do leadership, especially in transformative leadership. We talk about options, and I, and I have folks here who are the best options thinkers I have ever worked with who come up with stuff, and I’m like, I would’ve never come up with that. And, and that’s not necessarily their role, but they are great options thinkers. And so I enlist them and these conversations because it’s incredibly helpful.
Joe Gottlieb: (24:22)
So listening, do you talk about that? I I love that sort of, so there’s, that, that’s the top end of the process of we have a requirement. Let’s say maybe it’s a compliance directive or something else. Let’s think about options. And, um, I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, but it seems to me that two things are happening there. You’re looking for options that have other payoffs, i e synergies with either your, who you are as an institution, some of the things that you know, you have to get done. You’re, you’re aligning them also with strengths you have in the organization. So capabilities that are ready to be applied so that you can maximize the synergy to get the most done. But in the end, isn’t there a important back pressure on this process, which is the finite capacity organization? Um, how do you confront the, the finite capacity of your organization to make hard choices about what can be done and what must be deferred?
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (25:23)
Well, I think there’s a couple of ways. One is you bring people from the outside to come in and help you. Um, you know, there’s that old saying about the, what’s the definition of an expert? It’s someone who comes or drives 10 miles or more. Um, because this whole concept of sort of a pro, you know, a profit in his own land, um, folks will often listen to folks who are coming in from the outside mm-hmm. . And I’m absolutely fine with that. I, I am not the expert on everything. I’m not an expert on very much at all. And so I rely on folks to come in to facilitate hard conversations, to provide some more strategy. So that’s, that’s one way. The other is when you’re looking at capacity, is you have to, in some cases say, we’re not gonna do that anymore. And so I introduced this when I first got here as, um, knitting sweaters for chickens.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (26:21)
And the idea was, why would we do work for which there is no beneficial outcome, just because we’ve always knitted sweaters and now suddenly we’re trying to put them on chickens. It it’s that, that uselessness, right? Right. But it’s just because it becomes a habit of this is how, how we do work. So sometimes creating a sort of hard stop that says, we’re not gonna do this anymore, because usually you can tell the symptoms of, of a situation like that, people make commitments and don’t come through. Nobody signs up to do anything about it. Mm-hmm. people will ask a lot of questions, but nobody ever says, well, let me take that on. And at that point you have to say, then why are we doing this? We have to stop doing that, and let’s make room for other more important tasks or activities, or let’s make room for the things that we have the capacity and the, and the skills to carry out as opposed to what we’re struggling against.
Joe Gottlieb: (27:27)
Yeah. I think the, the, you know, knitting sweaters for chickens is, is a, I think that fits the category of sometimes it’s obvious that’s an activity should be stopped. Um, the, and it’s very useful, I think, to have a visible example and a bit of a mantra there. So that principle can be shared and utilized. And it’s not always you that has to call it out. Right? You, you have, you, you really hope your organization is, is calling those balls and strikes on itself, so to speak. Right? Um, it gets harder when, when people have their, I’ll say pet projects, but they have their point of view, they have their vantage point and, and this, I need this to make my life easier or to make my contribution to student success more evident or more impactful or more measurable, whatever it is. Right? Oftentimes the hardest, the hardest choices are around those things that are fitting with the higher objectives that an organization has.
Joe Gottlieb: (28:34)
And then I find it’s, this is where, this is the best practice. It gets really hard to then say, all right, we’re gonna have a method of understanding each other as, let’s say, at a leadership team level. And we’re gonna say, you know what? Right now this feel, these three things feel more actionable and more impactful. And while these other two things are right smack dab in the middle of categories that we know and love and are super important, they’re either not ready for prime time or compared to the others that, uh, these others are a better use of our finite capacity. So I, is that a, first of all, do you subscribe to that logic A and then if you do B, how do you, how do you perform that, that magic? Yeah.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (29:21)
Well one of the things that our, one of our VPs and the deans did is they created these 90 day projects and they were these l you know, we could say little annoyances that the deans identified and the dean said, I can fix that. So, and they did, they, they did it in less than 90 days, but they called him 90 day projects and they took things like, um, you know, the glass enclosures kiosks at the front of the campus and said, I’m gonna clean this up, this I’m gonna update, I’m gonna maintain it. And they’ve done that. And then they solicited help from folks. And oftentimes we forget, people feel honored when we ask them to help us. And people stepped up and have now made it probably one of the best activities. Uh, we had a couple other deans who came up with this fine, the falcon, our mascot is the Falcon.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (30:20)
And the idea, especially during Covid, was to get people on campus once a month to come and find the falcon. And at, when you got there, you got treats, we had gift cards, we had spin the wheel t-shirt, you name it. But the, the whole idea was really to get people back to campus and let them know that we’re here. Cuz one of the things we said was, the longer you stay away from campus, the hard it will, harder it will be to come back. Yeah. So we introduce these ways for people to want to come to campus for those types of events. So every dean, I have the list right here by my desk. Every dean has taken on these projects, including naming the Falcon. We had a competition on naming the Falcon. So seemingly small things that created a lot of joy and excitement and enlisted, the help of folks from around the campus really kind of got us going again.
Joe Gottlieb: (31:21)
I got it. So what I’m hearing there, a couple things I would sort of characterize. One is leveraging, um, this combination of interest and the, the honor of, of being asked to go tackle something and that, that unlocks energy, that unlocks capacity that you wouldn’t have in the mundane context, right? Yep. And two, the 90 day project is a reminder that keep it short enough so that the commitment is not too overwhelming to, to, so you can promote participation and you, you either, you get a quick outcome, right? Uh, in, in 90 days, and if it’s not working out, it can’t fit in the 90 days. Maybe it’s too heavy to be taking on without, without more thinking. Um, makes good sense. Um, definitely granularity is, is an important thing in a more iterative, agile strategic thinking and, and strategic operating, um, context. Yes. So let’s, let’s bring this to a close Celia. Um, what three takeaways would you share with our listeners? We’ve talked about a lot of stuff, but what three takeaways you’d give our listeners to think about on how best to transform institutional strategy?
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (32:36)
Yeah. Uh, well, I think for me, I always think about leading from a place of gratitude. Um, you know, there, there is a responsibility that we have as leaders. I always say nobody wants to follow the grim reaper. They’d rather follow little Mary sunshine. Um, regardless of what your personality may be or your inclination, um, you know, leading from a place of gratitude creates hopefulness. And, and that for me, inspires folks to want to continue on and, and do the hard work. So that’s one. Um, I think the other is you have to be able to assess and understand the organizational strengths and capacity. Um, too often, especially in community colleges, because we have such diverse responsibilities and goals that we have to achieve, that we take on a lot, and then we can’t get things done well. And I really believe in the let’s get fewer things done really well, then not get a bunch of things done at all or, uh, halfway.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (33:44)
So that’s another important, um, skillset. And I think that leadership, you have to be able to assess and understand where your strengths and capacity are. Um, and then I think the other is that regardless of the situation, you have to feel confident in your ability to be able to lead. And that doesn’t mean knowing the answers. It means not being afraid to say, I don’t know how to do this. I need your help. And I think simple steps, like asking people for help really opens up a huge, uh, capacity in an organization that folks might not think about. During Covid, I had not been in the previous pandemic of 1918, so I had not experienced a pandemic as a leader. And so I said, honestly, to the college, I don’t know what to do, so I need your best thinking. And so folks began to step up and put together ways in which to develop protocols to research best practices, to stay on top of, you know, county of public health.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (34:49)
But those were all ideas that others came up with because I gave the room by saying, I don’t know what to do. I need your help. So those, those I would say are three sort of characteristic strategies, um, that I, I think have worked well for me, but also for the organization that I’m currently serving. May not work everywhere, but it’s, I feel it’s worked well here. And that, and that’s an important piece too, is that every strategy will not work at every organization. You have to be mindful of where an organization is and what they need from you in your leadership role.
Joe Gottlieb: (35:27)
Uh, it’s a great summary. Celia, thank you so much for joining me today.
Dr. Celia Esposito-Noy: (35:30)
Joe Gottlieb: (35:32)
And thanks to our guests for joining us as well. Hope you have a great day, and we’ll look forward to hosting you again on the next episode of Transformed.